Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I have quite a few boxes of this in the freezer that I bought on the cheap a while ago but don't know a lot about the differences between it and 120
I read that it has a paper backed leader for about the first half or less then is unbacked ... to how far though? Surely the end of the film must have backing as well so you can remove it from the camera safely without exposing it to light once it's fully wound onto the takeup spool
The other question is ... can you use it in a camera designed for 120 if you block the red window and work out a system for accurate frame advancement. I read that in cameras like my Bronica RF645 the 220 setting for the camera moves the pressure plate a little close to the film rails to compensate for the lack of backing which makes sense but what about the first part of the film that still has backing? I'm a little confused about this!
The reason I ask is I have a little Voigtlander Brilliant scale focus TLR and was wondering if it's possible to use some of this 220 I have lurking in the fridge in it ... the Brilliant does have a small toothed wheel that contacts the film edge and operates a frame counter. It seems very accurate and can be reset to zero at any time by a release button. Actually this camera puzzles me a little because the red window oddly lines up with the indicators on the 120 backing for 6x9 ... it's caught me twice now and I've only got eight exposures from a roll of 120 instead of twelve. The wheel driven counter however counts and spaces accurately to twelve frames and is set back to one when you reach the first frame indicator on the film backing ... confusing also!
Sorry ...I hope you haven't nodded off while I've been describing all this!
I read that it has a paper backed leader for about the first half or less then is unbacked ... to how far though? Surely the end of the film must have backing as well so you can remove it from the camera safely without exposing it to light once it's fully wound onto the takeup spool
The other question is ... can you use it in a camera designed for 120 if you block the red window and work out a system for accurate frame advancement. I read that in cameras like my Bronica RF645 the 220 setting for the camera moves the pressure plate a little close to the film rails to compensate for the lack of backing which makes sense but what about the first part of the film that still has backing? I'm a little confused about this!
The reason I ask is I have a little Voigtlander Brilliant scale focus TLR and was wondering if it's possible to use some of this 220 I have lurking in the fridge in it ... the Brilliant does have a small toothed wheel that contacts the film edge and operates a frame counter. It seems very accurate and can be reset to zero at any time by a release button. Actually this camera puzzles me a little because the red window oddly lines up with the indicators on the 120 backing for 6x9 ... it's caught me twice now and I've only got eight exposures from a roll of 120 instead of twelve. The wheel driven counter however counts and spaces accurately to twelve frames and is set back to one when you reach the first frame indicator on the film backing ... confusing also!
Sorry ...I hope you haven't nodded off while I've been describing all this!
palec
Well-known
The backing paper is just behind the leader and trailer. First frame is already without it. So you can safely insert and remove the film, but the pressure plate has to be adjusted, as you've mentioned.
ClaremontPhoto
Jon Claremont
ChrisN
Striving
Keith, as Jon said, the camera needs to be able to adjust the position of the pressure plate, as the film is thinner without the attached backing paper strip.
I've never tried 220. The thing I love about 120 is that backing paper, which eliminates any chance of scratches caused by the pressure plate.
I've never tried 220. The thing I love about 120 is that backing paper, which eliminates any chance of scratches caused by the pressure plate.
projectbluebird
Film Abuser
I'm not sure how this idea got started. In all the cameras I've used that can handle 220 film, the pressure plate isn't adjusted any closer to the film rails than with 120. (that's what the spring on the pressure plate is for, regardless of the film) Instead, moving the pressure plate (on my yashica MAT 124, for example) changes the gearing so that the counter counts to 24, instead of 12. In fact, that's where it's name comes from (12)4 or 1(24)
It's no wonder people get confused.
As for your question about using 220 in a 120 camera, it's possible, with one caveat. Remember that as you wind the film up, the circumference of the winding post increases (as you wind more and more film around it)
so, for a given rotation, you wind more film onto the takeup reel.
35mm cameras get around this by interlocking with the sprocket holes. But with 120/220, there are none. There are 2 solutions for this; cheap and easy, or accurate and expensive.
The cheap solution, used by the majority of cameras, is to use the numbers printed on the paper backing. This only works for 120 film, however. The more accurate solution, used by hasselblad, mamiya, yashica, and the other higher end cameras is to use more complex gearing and cams to accurately space the frames.
Alternatively, you could just give it a try and see what happens. Experimentation is always fun! (even if it doesn't work out)
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
220 was a mess even when it was more widespread - it needs pressure plate adjustment and a extra film counter mode (i.e. often a special back or insert), can't be used on red windows cameras, and is extremely difficult to thread into a spool as you have to manage a perfectly straight cut on wide, heavily curling film in absolute darkness.
Sevo
Sevo
projectbluebird
Film Abuser
220 isn't any harder than 120 to get on a reel straight. If you slowly peel the tape off, there's no need to cut the film. (pull it too fast, and you'll get fogging around where the tape was)
iamzip
Ambitious, but rubbish
Not sure, but I think the manual for my GA645 does indeed say something about adjusting the pressure plate to compensdate for film thickness - otherwise the pictures may turn out wrong. It sure doesn't look like the pressure plate is connected to any gearing in any way.
EDIT: as far as getting 220 on a reel, most (if not all) 220 film sold these days is color - if you are doing your own color processsing than you have more patence than I do. I don't believe Kieth said what type of film he had.
EDIT: as far as getting 220 on a reel, most (if not all) 220 film sold these days is color - if you are doing your own color processsing than you have more patence than I do. I don't believe Kieth said what type of film he had.
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projectbluebird
Film Abuser
The plate in my 124 isn't connected to gearing, but when the plate is moved for 220, a hole lines up for a pin to pass through. How exactly this changes things is unknown to me, having never taken this camera apart.
I still don't think the pressure plate has to be moved to compensate for film thickness. Different film bases have different thicknesses anyway, as do emulsions, and I know that some backing papers are thicker than others. The springs that give the pressure plate its pressure compensate for this automatically, otherwise you would have to manually adjust every time you used a different film stock.
I still don't think the pressure plate has to be moved to compensate for film thickness. Different film bases have different thicknesses anyway, as do emulsions, and I know that some backing papers are thicker than others. The springs that give the pressure plate its pressure compensate for this automatically, otherwise you would have to manually adjust every time you used a different film stock.
historicist
Well-known
A lot of film pressure plates are held the in correct plane not by pressing the film against the guide rails, but by a separate set of guide rails outside the film area. Then the natural curve of the film holds it flat against the plate (a spring is of course still necessary). This ensures flatter film, if the film is clamped on the edges the centre bows in away from the correct plane.
With this kind of pressure plate, because it is held in plane by these rails, the spring cannot simply press it further in to compensate for the thinner film.
Instead, the edge of the 220 side of the plate is machined away a tiny bit so it can be held in the correct position for the thinner film.
You can see this in this pressure plate from a Norita 66. Because this is the best way to keep the film flat, almost all relatively recent medium format cameras have a similar system.
That's also why some high quality cameras need a special back for 220, (Hasselblad 500 for example) because you can't turn the plate around.
With this kind of pressure plate, because it is held in plane by these rails, the spring cannot simply press it further in to compensate for the thinner film.
Instead, the edge of the 220 side of the plate is machined away a tiny bit so it can be held in the correct position for the thinner film.
You can see this in this pressure plate from a Norita 66. Because this is the best way to keep the film flat, almost all relatively recent medium format cameras have a similar system.
That's also why some high quality cameras need a special back for 220, (Hasselblad 500 for example) because you can't turn the plate around.
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sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Provided that the maker in his wisdom used a peelable adhesive on a tear-proof film...
Sevo
projectbluebird
Film Abuser
Which film are you using? Last time I looked for 220 (when I had a 220 back for a hasselblad) the only film I could find was Tri-X, not my favorite.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
None, any more - too few films, too much hassle. When I still was using 220, it was mostly Agfapan 100 and Ektachrome EPN.
Sevo
Sevo
Sparrow
Veteran
Best left in the freezer Keith, it’s the work of the devil.
There is an entire section in hell where they do nothing but load spirals with 220 film
There is an entire section in hell where they do nothing but load spirals with 220 film
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
And it's all colour ... Portra 160 400 and some Fuji 400!
I'll probaly wind up using it in the Bronica RF as it sounds like far too much drama in the Voigtlander Brilliant.
I've ordered some more C41 chemicals from Freestyle in anticipation of my upcoming time in hell!
Sparrow
Veteran
And it's all colour ... Portra 160 400 and some Fuji 400!
I'll probaly wind up using it in the Bronica RF as it sounds like far too much drama in the Voigtlander Brilliant.
I've ordered some more C41 chemicals from Freestyle in anticipation of my upcoming time in hell!
Best get some beta-blockers in at the same time then!
I would’ve just droped it in the lab and done my evil-laugh as I left
naruto
GASitis.. finally cured?
Excuse my ignorance, but, can I ask why is it so difficult to get the film into the reels? I thought the 220 width is similar to the 120 film. Will the absence of the paper backing make it tougher to wind the film into the reels?
I am expecting a Fuji GW690 III on my doorstep sometime next week. And, I thought of playing with it and some 220 TXP 320 film for the "One Camera One Lens Challenge".
palec
Well-known
I have no idea about mentioned problems with 120/220 film. I usually load two 120 films into one Jobo reel with delimiter tab and used to load two taped 120 films before into AP/Paterson reel. Sure it's not that comfortable as 135 film, but with a little bit of patience it's easy.
Sparrow
Veteran
Excuse my ignorance, but, can I ask why is it so difficult to get the film into the reels? I thought the 220 width is similar to the 120 film. Will the absence of the paper backing make it tougher to wind the film into the reels?
I am expecting a Fuji GW690 III on my doorstep sometime next week. And, I thought of playing with it and some 220 TXP 320 film for the "One Camera One Lens Challenge".
In my experience (limited) getting the last 30% on the spiral is very difficult it sticks, twists and buckles all over the place. I may have more patience now but in my youth I found it too frustrating
naruto
GASitis.. finally cured?
One more query, and then I'll stop.
Is this on plastic reels or stainless steel? I use plastic reels in my tank, the kind that has a tongue to guide in the film into the ball bearings. Will this cause problems?
Personally, my first 120 load went terrible. But, since then, I have misloads only on 135 film. :bang: