Strange Leica III

[mkvrnn]

I've just acquired what seems to be a Leica III in black enamel and nickel. It has the slow speed dial and a fastest speed of 1/500 so I'm assuming that it is a III.

The odd thing is that the serial number seems to have been disguised by a plate stuck over the top of it. this plate carries the number 76244. The paint is damaged around the plate, but that could have been caused by somebody trying to clean it up in order to read the number.

My first thought was that it might be a fake, despite the camera coming in its original Leica case and with an original Elmar lens hood. But all the little details seem to be correct so I'm fairly certain that it is genuine. The removable cup around the release button worried me at first, but could that be an aftermarket addition?

Has anybody come across a Leica with a serial number on a plate like this one. If it has been added, why would somebody do that?

There's another issue with the camera - I can't unscrew the lens and the focus lever seems to stop at the wrong places. I'll start another post about this issue.

 

[Scrambler]

Someone has erased the serial number, someone else (not the factory) has "reissued" one.

Why you would re-mark it I don't know. Why you would erase it ...

Let's just say I don't buy the "cleaning up" story.

 

[Harryo1962]

That is interesting, for sure.
The 'Leica' script on top looks off to me.

 

[Erik van Straten]

The camera is certainly real. Someone tried to hide the original number that should have been higher than 76244. The style of the engraving is around 1935 - 1939.

The "cup" around the release-button is a kind of early soft release. Leitz made those themselves: SOREI.

Erik.

 

[Livesteamer]

In the past there have been import laws that required some cameras to have names defaced or removed but I don't think that is the case. If at some time the camera had been stolen, the thief may have tried to remove identification. Joe

 

[Mr_Flibble]

I have a 'defaced' IIIc, but that's limited to just the Leica logo. Not the serial number.

 

[Dralowid]

Yes, real as Erik says. The 'real' number (or at least the number of the chassis/crate) may be scratched inside within the rangefinder housing on top of the camera crate.

The lens is missing one of its stop screws. Looks like it has also been re-assembled in the wrong helical thread. Easy to sort out, just a question of a little trial and error. Someone has probably tried to force it in some way which would explain it being tight to the camera.

Unscrew the lens unit out of the focussing mount, turn it by, say, 45% and try screwing in again. You may not get this right first time but it will all fit flush and correctly in the end and be on the infinity marks.

Also the lens being stuck on the camera...gentle force applied evenly is all I can suggest...

 

[Scrambler]

The camera is certainly real. Someone tried to hide the original number that should have been higher than 76244. The style of the engraving is around 1935 - 1939.

The "cup" around the release-button is a kind of early soft release. Leitz made those themselves: SOREI.

Erik.

Erik, would cameras of this era ever have been military issue? I just wonder if it might have been defaced early in its life and the re-numbered for import or something, say when a GI took it home in 1946? I'm trying to think of reasons for defacing. Clearly theft, but who would recognise the serial number? The defecement would mark it as stolen, but the lack of serial number prevents hard proof of where it was stolen.

 

[Mr_Flibble]

Not sure if the Military marking would have been in that specific location. German ones almost certainly did not. I vaguely recall seeing British military Leicas that had an additional serial number in that spot.

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

Re: " The removable cup around the release button worried me at first, but could that be an aftermarket addition?"

R G Lewis and Wallace Heaton etc sold an after market cup for half a crown (2/6d). And a lot of useful bits and pieces like the cradle for Barnacks that gave you a tripod socket at the centre of gravity. My WH 1937 catalogue shows them.

The shutter button guard was designed for them by "Minicam" which was the pen name of one of Miniature Camera World's regular writers.

Regards, David

 

[mkvrnn]

Thanks for all the interesting comments, and especially to Dralowid for the suggestion about the focus problem. I unscrewed the infinity stop, unscrewed the helix, and screwed it back from a different stating point. Problem solved! Should I use a lubricant on the helix by the way? I can live without the other focussing stop, unless anybody has any ideas about where to source one.

Removing the lens barrel also enabled me to see the rangefinder cam follower which finally confirms for my own peace of mind that the camera is genuine.

I'm still baffled by the "fake " serial number. The military explanation sounds plausible, but why would they fit a plate rather than just stamp an additional number The theft explanation sounds unlikely. I suspect that the paintwork scratches around the plate are the result of a later attempt to investigate rather than the original fitting of the plate. It's a shame because the rest of the paintwork is very nice and the shutter is excellent. I'm tempted to try to remove the plate to try to discover the original number and repair the cosmetic damage, but I might make things worse.

 

[Erik van Straten]

I'm tempted to try to discover the original number.

When the top-cover is removed, the original number can be seen: it is engraved next to the viewfinder. Dralowid said this too.


I really don't know the answers on the questions from Scrambler, I am sorry.

Erik.

 

[Dralowid]

The camera dates from '33 to sometime before '39. I say 'sometime before' because the 'typical' black IIIs tend to be earlier. We tried to run a thread a way back on late black 'typical' cameras but it was inconclusive, though some of the latest ones I have seen have chrome fittings.

On the basis of these dates I don't think it is likely to be a defaced military camera.

The only way to move to the next step is to take off the rf/vf top housing and look for a number...or just leave it be!

 

[Erik van Straten]

The camera dates from '33 to sometime before '39.

Slightly later, I would say, because the D.R.P.-marking is between "Leica" and "Ernst Leitz" and not completely at the bottom underneath "Wetzlar" as the earliest II's and III's have. Between 1935 and 1939.

Erik.

 

[mkvrnn]

What does removal of the top cover involve please?

 

[Dralowid]

If you are handy you will be OK. If not you will scratch something or mangle a screw. There are two 'adjustments' you may lose. One is the correct repositioning of the shutter dial (which is easy) and the other is the re-alignment of the viewfinder (see below).

Can't find a link right now but others will be able to describe better so in essence:

Remove accessory shoe
Unscrew shutter dial (note grub screw)
Remove rangefinder eyepiece by undoing screw in side of housing
Unscrew viewfinder eyepiece (you need something to grab it with, you can buy spanner type things)
Remove central screw at back

In the front
Unscrew right hand rangefinder window as viewed from the front
Remove screw/cover below viewfinder window that covers rf adjustment screw
Now...the left hand viewfinder window.
If you unscrew this it is likely that you will lose vertical rf alignment. It is an outer ring (which unscrews) and an inner ring that is a press fit. The glass itself is a very slight wedge which when rotated varies the rf alignment and will need to be repositioned on reassembly.

Do all that and the top comes off unless I have forgotten something.

Don't blame me if there is no number under it, to be honest I wouldn't bother unless you are relaxed about doing stuff like this.

 

[Dralowid]

Correction to my email...re-alignment of RANGEFINDER not VIEWFINDER!!!

Age...

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

May I just add something?

When unscrewing elderly grub screws, never force them but stop and give up. They can break the screw head - such as it is - across the slot and then you will usually be in deep and expensive trouble.

Regards, David

 

[Erik van Straten]

To unscrew the windows of the rangefinder/viewfinder use only a piece of inner tube from a bicycle (and your thumb) or else you will damage things.

Don't forget the screw at the side of the housing, next to the rewind knob.

Also remove the big screw next to the viewfinder opening at the front.

At the back, between the eyepieces, there is another screw that has to be removed.

Use high quality screwdrivers. The golden rule is: do not damage anything.

The screws of a Leica are of a very high quality indeed. They hardly ever break, unlike those of a Zorki or Fed.

Erik.

 

[Dwig]

...
I'm still baffled by the "fake " serial number. ...

It might not be a "fake" number. You might have a bit of a Franken-Leica where some amateur replaced the original top cover with another salvaged cover and renumbered it to match the camera's original number. Only opening the camera and seeing the internal number would tell.