street photography confrontation

[FrankS]

Frank,

One day I decided to wink every girl on the street with whom I would have eye contact for more then a millisecond. I learned a lot. 90% of those girls would just get shy and leave the scene as fast as they could and the other 10 would smile generously.

Lesson 2: apparently if you'd go and ask bluntly, to 10 random girls on the streets, "let's make love", 3 would say "ok".

No jokes.

You have to admit your photography just got better. I know mine did after I got those 2 lessons.

Thanks, I'm going to have to try that!

 

[Ororaro]

It is a genuine question. It was asked once to me when I "knew."

I am sorry, but have we met before? On what do you base your opinion that I am "generally sarcastic"?

No, I don't know you.
Our photography don't compare.
I know because many times I'Kve been confronted to the worst. Prison during the communist era in Eastern Europe was not out of the question.
I'm talkuing about personal experience, and I know. I do not quote other people's work and words such as tihs Smith I have no idea about.

 

[Finder]

No, I don't know you.
Our photography don't compare.
I know because many times I'Kve been confronted to the worst. Prison during the communist era in Eastern Europe was not out of the question.
I'm talkuing about personal experience, and I know. I do not quote other people's work and words such as tihs Smith I have no idea about.

Well, I am sorry about your experiences. But you seem to be showing this work as an example of not confronting the subject and you are imply they could not be better photographs if you had. Beyond the social or political consequences in your particular situation, there is no proof the photographs could not be better if done another way. They are good examples of staying unengaged, but they do not show engaging the subject would yield less. My experience is that I cannot judge what something could have been unless I tried it. I guess I don't believe in any absolute position on either side of this issue. Either approach can work.

W. Eugene Smith was an American photographer who lived from 1918 to 1978.
He was one of the most influential photographers in regards to the photo story or photo essay. He worked in fascist Spain, WWII, and was physically attacked during his Minamata essay on industrial pollution.

http://www.masters-of-photography.com/S/smith/smith.html

 

[YEGEY]

No, I don't know you.
Our photography don't compare.
I know because many times I'Kve been confronted to the worst. Prison during the communist era in Eastern Europe was not out of the question.
I'm talkuing about personal experience, and I know. I do not quote other people's work and words such as tihs Smith I have no idea about.

I wonder what is it you are reffering to Ned? If I'm not mistaken, you are 31 years old. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Communist era in Eastern Europe was pretty much over by the time I would expect you could possibly have any troubles as a photographer there. Things were far more relaxed by the time you would be 18 and could face any real prison/issues. I lived behind the Iron Curtain for a long time and have general idea how these things worked there.

 

[NickTrop]

A couple years ago I was in a diner and took a picture of a hamburger and fries on a plate setting on a little window sill (sic?) waiting to be picked up by a waitress. In the background were the kitchen and kitchen help. I was there alone eating an omelet. Would have made a nice b&w, I thought.

Owner - who was an Asian immigrant, came over, angrier -n- hell, making a scene. No likey me taking pics. To calm her down, I offered to give her the roll. She accepted. Took the roll. I paid and left.

My guess is she "might" have had some issues with illegal immigrants working in the kitchen? Whatever. It was an embarrassing scene.

 

[ruben]

Hi Frank,

Since it is very late now for me, really late, I cannot read the whole thread. But if your fellow shows rather aggressive you have two lines of action, one before the other, both in their turn.

The first is the one provided by Sitemistic somewhere, that I can only remember from my memory: "I don't know you, I have never seen you, I don't know what are you talking about, nor what do you want". Then you turn abruptly to your way and continue walking.

The second comes in case your fellow instead of getting confused becomes really aggresive. Fist your wrist and be prepared to defend yourself.

All the above takes for granted you have tact in selecting your subjects and the fellow came from nowhere.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[Bob Michaels]

As a documentary photographer I am always photographing people I did not previously know. Typically, this is in minority communities where I stand out like a white thumb on a black fist. I engage them in conversation, obtain verbal permission, then photograph. I try to honor direct request not to be photographed. But the occasional confrontation does occur from time to time. I am always able to diffuse that by explaining what I am doing with a frequent commitment not to use the photo with the objecting party.

I had one of those confrontations today. I did not try to explain that I was photographing a group 20 feet away with tha 21mm lens. I only explained that I was documenting the community and let it go at that. The objecting party calmed down. Actually it was at a local bus stop where several buses stop for five minute or so.

When I proactivelly explained to one of the bus drivers, he asked if I had permission from the municipal transit company. I gave him the normal "nice guy, facts, more nice guy" routine. I explained that I was non confrontational and did not photograph anyone who objected. Then I explained that I did not need permission from the transit authority for what I was doing, the closed with more nice guy lines. He was still very hesitant so I gave him more "nice guy" then explained that the local transit folks could not stop me even if they objected as I had the right to photograph in a public place but that was really not relevant and went back into the "nice guy" mode. He spent the rest of his break on the phone with his supervisors who I assumed were confirming what I told him. Meanwhile I continued photographing the passengers waiting to board.

It's all a matter of being nice while expressing an aura of confidence. Overlaying all of that is a sense of logic and self preservation, knowing when is really the time to turn and walk away.

 

[mike goldberg]

By now, Ruben has gone to bed, yes? Perhaps, he is influenced by the increasingly violent behavior of Israeli football fans [and now] pro basketball fans? As for me, I prefer a gentler approach, a few words, followed by a quick turn and walking away.
Good night and good luck... to quote Murrow.

 

[Finder]

When I was 18, a man walked up to me and stuck a (plastic) knife to my side and told me not to take his picture. I didn't.

 

[ruben]

....As for me, I prefer a gentler approach, a few words, followed by a quick turn and walking away.
Good night and good luck... to quote Murrow.

Mike,
What the fellows at RFF don't know is that a man of your dimensions should dis-qualify himself from this thread.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[marke]

I'm sorry, Ned

I'm sorry, Ned

Mark, I noticed you're always giving importance to the relationship one can build with people on the streets prior to shoot them.

Hey, Ned. Good to hear from you. I'm sorry, but I think you've misunderstood me. Frank, the OP, brought up the issue of what to answer someone when they ask about having already taken their picture. And my response was to the same. We're not talking about the situation before the picture is taken, but rather after.

BTW, I don't "always" give importance to the relationship the photographer can build with people on the street, but for some reason this seems to have gotten your attention. Good! Take a moment and think about this though, Ned, since many of us are always discussing the issue of remaining "invisible". Sure, I'll be the first to say that many times this can produce the best results. That's pretty obvious to anyone who has tried street for a short time. But have you ever considerd why some of us would rather not take a different route when the confrontation does happen? I think it would be fair to say that many of us are just too AFRAID of going beyond a quick turn around. Even some smart-*ss remark is just an easy way out. Now before you say that this approach doesn't always work, I will say, "Of course not!". I have also mentioned more than once on this forum, that we have to remain flexible to each situation at hand. The photographer who thinks they know it all, will probably be the one who ends up missing a lot of good shots. I certainly don't know this genre of photography very well, and I am only offering my own input the best I can based on my own experiences.

I think this reasoning is flawed and it has nothing to do with good photography at all. Maybe it has more to do with bad photography or psychology, who knows.

Good photography has to be approached from many directions, and I'm don't agree with a blanket statement such as this.

It's all about the instant, the eye, the composition.

Yes, that's a big part of it.

Nothing to do with unknown street people being allies. The best photographs ever taken we're exactly the opposite of what you are explaining.

The best? You are entitled to your opinion. But again, I don't agree with a blanket statement such as this.

Anyhow, here are some of my pictures where I couldn't care less about being friendly with the subjects. As a matter ofact, I like to see their faces when they notice me.

Well, I believe both these statements.

However, I believe your second one is actually a good one to apply many times. The eye-to-eye contact makes many pictures much more than they could ever be without it. I learned this in wildlife photography, and it can be very true in street-people photography as well. In addition, it's actually the beginning of a relationship. See, you are doing it, Ned! Be it pleasant or not, that moment was a moment of the subject and the photographer relating with each other. Isn't that a moment you really feel alive?!

I don't see how tihs image, or any other, for instance, would have been improved if I walked up to the people and said "hi!". No way, just doesn't work that way.

I agree. But I've already pointed out that neither I, or anyone else that I'm aware of, were referring to confronting the subject before the picture is taken, so I don't feel a need to explain this any further. (Hey, is that Noctilux fogging up or something? )

However, I wonder what would have happened if you would have had the courage to start talking with the man with the raised finger afterwards, without any malice, that is. I'll bet he was a pretty interesting person. makes me think about the possibility of you missing so much when you ran into George Zimbel. It sounds like the moment was open for further conversation. With your wife busy shopping and Mr. Zimbel just "pushing his old fashioned bike on the sidewalk", it sounded like there was no reason to rush the encounter. That's okay though. I'd be the first to admit that I've cut a conversation short many times when I later realized it would have been best to continue it a little longer.

 

[marke]

Frank,

One day I decided to wink every girl on the street with whom I would have eye contact for more then a millisecond. I learned a lot. 90% of those girls would just get shy and leave the scene as fast as they could and the other 10 would smile generously.

Lesson 2: apparently if you'd go and ask bluntly, to 10 random girls on the streets, "let's make love", 3 would say "ok".

No jokes.

You have to admit your photography just got better. I know mine did after I got those 2 lessons.

Ned, I'm quite sure you had a lot of fun with those experiments (and maybe got you a few dates ), but how did this improve your photography?

 

[marke]

Bob, I enjoyed and appreciated your real life story.

It's all a matter of being nice while expressing an aura of confidence. Overlaying all of that is a sense of logic and self preservation, knowing when is really the time to turn and walk away.

Works for me!

 

[ErnestoJL]

The few times someone asked if I did take a photo of him/her, I just showed my identification card showing that I belong to Studies Center of the Simik Photographic Museum, and inmediately invited the person to visit the museum (no admission fees!). Of course I allways carry some leaflets of the Museum to support mi invitation...

At least, for me it allways worked, even with police officers but not with security guards...those last are really stupid and paranoid.

Cheers

ErnestoJL

 

[marke]

When I was 18, a man walked up to me and stuck a (plastic) knife to my side and told me not to take his picture. I didn't.

I'm glad.

 

[marke]

Sometimes I'll even fake klutziness (fiddling around with the camera) to make sure someone notices me. R.

You mean that I'm not the only one who does this?

Actually, I usually don't have to fake it. I make it a point at times to openly display my fiddling with the camera settings, just to "release the tension" and to give anybody a chance to plan their escape if they so wish. But as you said, Roger, this is only one of many approaches that can be used.

 

[jky]

Owner - who was an Asian immigrant, came over, angrier -n- hell, making a scene. No likey me taking pics. To calm her down, I offered to give her the roll. She accepted. Took the roll. I paid and left.

I was taking a meter reading with a Rollei 35T (where the meter is located at the top which requires having to look down to see it) and the person that so happened to be near where I was measuring threw a fit...
It may have appeared as if I was sneaking in a photo, perhaps by looking down, but I tried to reassure her that I was not. She proceeded to ream me out for about a minute then walked off.
I remember reading one time that some cultures perceive photo-taking as invading their soul (or something similar to that idea). So... okay... at least I'll be a little more sensitive to that the next time...

That was the only time I've been confronted...
For the most part, I find that a smile and an unsneaky kind of discreteness (if that makes sense) is enough. When asked - which barely happens - I usually tell them the truth and that "I'm just walking around taking pictures" & something like "... no... I don't work for a newspaper; I'm just a hobbyist..." then I offer them a photo if they would like....

 

[Bob Michaels]

I just showed my identification card showing that I belong to .........
ErnestoJL

Good point. I always carry personal business cards that contain just my name, address, phone, e-mail and website and frequently give them to anyone who shows some sign of concern. 95% of the people feel much more at ease when you volunteer your personal information in writing. I've never had a call or e-mail from that except for friends I've made that way. And our house is basically inaccessible even if someone wanted to come.

I also give a card to every policeman I encounter since I frequently photograph in a neighborhood where the only white people (as I am) you see are there to buy crack cocaine. I want the police to know who I am and why I'm there.

Maybe I also hope that more residents will remember my name so they don't have to refer to me as "photo man".

 

[marke]

I've never had a call or e-mail from that except for friends I've made that way. And our house is basically inaccessible even if someone wanted to come.

Darn. :bang:

I've been doing the same thing with my business cards. As you said, t's an easy way to help put the people minds at ease.

I also give a card to every policeman I encounter since I frequently photograph in a neighborhood where the only white people (as I am) you see are there to buy crack cocaine. I want the police to know who I am and why I'm there.

Bob, that's just what I was referring to in an earlier post. Allies, gentlemen...we need more allies!

 

[marke]

I like to see their faces when they notice me.

Ned, there is only one photo that you posted that clearly shows that you were noticed, that is the last one with the man giving you the salute. Even in the picture with the deformed face, the person isn't looking at you. I've also noticed that many of your shots seem to be taken with glass betwen you and your subject. Is that for your protection?

BTW, the human eye is, without argument, and important element of street photography, but sometimes it's best if it's not directed at the photographer. This picture would be ruined if it were. This couple was standing right beside me at a bus stop and never saw me take this shot. But afterwards I struck up a conversation with them. The result? Well, another street ally AND a sale.