Sunpak PF20XD on Zeiss ZI (No TTL)

[kiss-o-matic]

Hi

Googling around lead me to this thread which inspired me to buy this nice, compact little flash. I've RTFM'ed, and have studied the guide, but still have a couple of questions which can probably be applied to using flash as a whole.

This guy has 3 auto modes (A1, A2, A3), and 4 manual ones (why one of the manual modes is not 1/2 power is beyond me, but oh, well). There's a chart for the 3 auto modes telling me what aperture to use at ISO 100,200, and 400. It says nothing of the range though. Does the sensor on the flash take care of that? Since the ZI has no clue (or doesn't care) about the flash, how should I go about this w/ no other light meter? I usually shoot in Ae, and would like to here if that's possible. There's a halloween parade at the end of the month where I will use this. The action starts mainly when the parade is over and everyone is mingling, which is probably 2 hours before sunset.

For Manual, it tells me what the guide number is for ISO 100,200 and 400, depending on where the dial is. Is this where I bust out ye old calculator and do aperture * distance = gn? I will likely use Provia 400X for the event as I won't start until about 2 hours before sun down. It says at Max output at ISO 400, the GN is 40. So, if I'm going to be using that setting at about 2.5 meters away from the subject, I need to shoot at F16?

Sounds like I should stick to the auto modes, but I'm wondering how they will work realistically. The mingling part of the event is basically in a shopping strip with 3-4 story buildings on either side. It gets almost no direct sunlight except for mid day. As the sun sets, there is quite a bit of artificial light from the surrounding buildings. Here's a shot from last year towards the end. Had a DSLR and used trial and error to find a setting I liked. Don't have that luxury this time though. 🙂


Wafuu Meets Spider-Man (2) by gaijin_punch, on Flickr

 

[alienmeatsack]

Do you have a digital camera you can put it on and try it, trying to replicate the ZI settings and behaviors and then use those to try and get close? And possibly have time to do a test roll in a similar environment?

I don't do much flash on any of my film cameras or digitals for that matter. When I do, I end up either going with my super cheap Diana F+ flash for it's super blown out look and changing the camera's settings a few stops to compensate, or I use my Nikon's flash in manual and turn it way down and point it away and then shoot the camera as if there were no flash and hope for the best. Not the best way to do it but I don't know how else to handle it since there's no way to do some test shots easily to find out if I have the lighting right.

 

[Takkun]

Maybe it's my age, but I've never fully trusted non-TTL flash on film. I've always shot studio strobes with digital (maybe hooking up a film camera for some BW once its dialed in), or using Nikon's TTL system with my old Sunpak.

The point of Auto, non-TTL flash is that it does detect the distance for you, in a sense; it measures flash output and turns off when it thinks there's enough. Same as TTL, but it doesn't know what aperture you're using, so the flash has you choose one that it uses for its calcuations. Generally, the mode dial flips a series of ND filters in front of the sensor--higher filtration for the larger apertures reccomended.
Using a smaller aperture than it thinks you're using will dial down the exposure, and vice versa.

Now here's how to use fill flash-- When you have the camera on AE, all it cares about is ambient. All the flash cares about is the flash exposure. Set your aperture based on how bright you want the flash (again, over/under what the flash tells you to use), and set your exposure compensation (which only affects shutter speed) to how bright you want the background.

Hope that's simple enough. Playing with digital really helps so you can get instant feedback. I'm lazy enough that the few times I shoot flash with an RF, I use a Nikon speed light, whose screen gives me all the calculations right there.

Also, you have http://www.sunpak.jp/english/products/pf20xd/ this model, yes? It looks like you do have variable manual output, and that A3 will give you the most power/range in auto.


Oh, and a postscript: I had a professor at university who was a very strict, grizzled old PJ who said to never use flash, since it wasn't 'truthful'. 😉

 

[kiss-o-matic]

Do you have a digital camera you can put it on and try it, trying to replicate the ZI settings and behaviors and then use those to try and get close? And possibly have time to do a test roll in a similar environment?

I'm down to one since some a-hole stole the one that was taken above. I have done this before, but something tells me my digital is compensating somewhere. I shoot Ae almost all the time... I was on the road and had to search the interwebs to figure out how to put it in manual. 🙂

Not the best way to do it but I don't know how else to handle it since there's no way to do some test shots easily to find out if I have the lighting right.

I'm usually the same, but for this particular event, it was apparent I needed some flash. My mentor of sorts is always on my back for not at least having it, so I figure it's time to have at least something minimal. The other option is to use the Yashica Electro GX -- the flash works pretty well as far as I've seen.

Also, you have http://www.sunpak.jp/english/products/pf20xd/ this model, yes? It looks like you do have variable manual output, and that A3 will give you the most power/range in auto.

Yes, this is the model.

Now here's how to use fill flash-- When you have the camera on AE, all it cares about is ambient. All the flash cares about is the flash exposure. Set your aperture based on how bright you want the flash (again, over/under what the flash tells you to use), and set your exposure compensation (which only affects shutter speed) to how bright you want the background.

One Caveat with Ae -- flash sync on the ZI is 125, so I have to set the aperture and make sure I never go over this. So, I'm thinking M mode just might be better... bit still also a pain. 😀

Hope that's simple enough. Playing with digital really helps so you can get instant feedback. I'm lazy enough that the few times I shoot flash with an RF, I use a Nikon speed light, whose screen gives me all the calculations right there.

Yeah, I need to do this but have been waiting for decent conditions. Again, I gotta make sure my digital is not compensating for what it thinks is an error.

I use a Nikon speed light, whose screen gives me all the calculations right there.

The idea here was that I wanted something small. (For the record, which one do you have?) There is the chance that I'll use this to fill in pretty strong sunlight which is way harder to mess up. I think with this halloween parade though it's going to cross that line into necessary fill, if you catch my drift.

 

[Takkun]

That's a good point about AE, it doesn't even know there's a flash attached. But in practice, it might be a non-issue. If you're shooting in low light with 400, you can stop down a decent amount to give you some wiggle room with focus, and then you probably wouldn't even hit 1/125.
Not sure what camera you're using, but if it has a M mode, that's all that matters. Set the exposure according to its meter (to replicate AE), and you should be golden.

Out of curiosity, whereabouts are you shooting this parade? I was an exchange student in Japan and wish I had done more roaming around Tokyo when I got the chance.

 

[kiss-o-matic]

UPDATE: Okay, I messed around w/ it on my digital in my living room. If you've never been to Tokyo, just note that you can usually touch your neighbor's building with your hand, from your window. Exhibit A. So, in my home which is something akin to a room from A Game of Thrones, following the aperture setting (and setting shutter to 125) it seems to give good results. I will not mess much with manual modes for now. A1 & A2 seem to be good, which has me shooting at 5.6 at 400 ASA. Generally will need that or maybe more since people rarely line up straight. 🙂

That's a good point about AE, it doesn't even know there's a flash attached. But in practice, it might be a non-issue. If you're shooting in low light with 400, you can stop down a decent amount to give you some wiggle room with focus, and then you probably wouldn't even hit 1/125.
Not sure what camera you're using, but if it has a M mode, that's all that matters. Set the exposure according to its meter (to replicate AE), and you should be golden.

Zeiss Ikon ZI (black). It does have M mode, so I'm golden there. I guess since I never use flash my main question is, if the camera is exposing for the subject w/o flash, at what point does the flash cause over exposure?

 

[Takkun]

Oh yes. I moved here from Boston, so I'm well aware of that..and about neighbors wondering why my living room was a lightning factory. It was fun when there would be a pack of drunk university students in the alley.

What will be happening though, like I said, is if you keep the shutter constant and vary the aperture, your flash exposure will change. Remember, shutter speed has no effect on flash because it's not a constant light source. The aperture will affect both ambient *and* flash. The flash itself has the sensor on the front, so it only thinks you're shooting at 5.6 and will output accordingly. Therefore if your ambient changes and you open/close the aperture to compensate, what's lit by flash will increase or decrease respectively.

If you can, try and get a stationary object and set it on top of something in the middle of the room, so you can see the difference between what's lit by what. I try to use my cat, but that's usually too much adventure. A book propped up on a table might work.

 

[Takkun]

Oh, and since I saw a thread where flash on an RF came up, I thought I'd reccomend David Hobby's site, and his Lighting 101 series.
His method for flash is generally to rough in a lighting setup, all manual, and then use the LCD preview instead of an actual meter, but L101 gives you a crash course in how flash works fundamentally.

Ansel's The Negative does too, but his writing's a bit dense and assumes you understand the zone system first.

Edit: if you wanna skip to the good stuff, here you go.

 

[kiss-o-matic]

Oh yes. I moved here from Boston, so I'm well aware of that..and about neighbors wondering why my living room was a lightning factory. It was fun when there would be a pack of drunk university students in the alley.

Haha -- I'm sure my neighbors have all sorts of fun about me. I busted the kid next doors light on his bike in a bone head move. I left them a note saying I'd buy another one, and his mother responded by saying not to worry about it, but could use some music recommendations based on what she heard from my house. 🙂 For the neighbors on the other side, I can hear the news through the wall... and that wall is my bedroom, so... :-/

Remember, shutter speed has no effect on flash because it's not a constant light source.

Ah, yeah. So I assume if I want more of the ambient I need to drop the shutter speed? I'll be using a 50mm. The camera does 1/30 and 1/60. Not sure if I'm comfortable w/ handheld 1/30. I will probably have a few drinks in me.

I thought I'd reccomend David Hobby's site, and his Lighting 101 series.

Cheers for the reading links. I will check them out. I have been reading up on this. A few weeks ago I didn't know what a guide number is, so I'm at least getting somewhere. 🙂 Kind of hard finding something that assumes you're not going to have TTL metering. They may make mention of it, but it's generally a side note. Those will do nicely.

 

[kiss-o-matic]

I updated a post above a little late. I'll move it down here in case you missed.

Out of curiosity, whereabouts are you shooting this parade? I was an exchange student in Japan and wish I had done more roaming around Tokyo when I got the chance.

Kawasaki Halloween parade. It's quite famous, and impressive I must say. There's a lot of creativity. Here is my shots from last year. The parade is cool, but not conducive for shooting. People walking, and it's really crowded. Afterwards, the booze comes out... people mingle.. pose, etc. Good fun.

Tokyo is an amazing sandbox. If you do street... just take a train for 15 minutes. If you do portrait or that kind of thing, there are tons of models you can hire quite cheaply. I see amateur photo shoots in the park when I jog all the time. Sometimes the camera men seem a little creepy, and the models all do the same pose, but I'm sure you could direct them a bit.