Tales from the Greasy Side, 5cm f1.5 Sonnar "T" and More, SCARY, Lens Horror Stories!

[Sonnar Brian]

Yours looks spot-on to me, and looks sharp.

I've adjusted some 200 Jupiter-3's when I was doing this. A hobby- and it was primarily to take them apart and understand the differences. I've always known that the USSR optics were first-rate, but the Jupiter lenses were dissed by Leica shooters. I wanted to know why. The 52.4mm +/- 1% is certainly a main factor, and the "Mechanical tolerances and lack of quality control" in the mechanical fixtures is another, Most can be fixed and adjusted. I've converted about 70 Sonnars (~50 F1.5's and ~20 F2) to Leica mount. These days- getting a Jupiter-3 donor lens at a low price is almost impossible, and Sonnars have at least doubled. I'd have the person supply the Sonnar and Jupiter, do the conversion for $25 and keep the left-over parts. That's how I got repair parts. Most parts went into making the incoming lenses better before they went back out. I should have scribed initials in some of them. I saw a CZJ 5cm F1.5 in Leica mount pop up on the Zeiss Historical Facebook page, it was probably one that I did. I don't use Facebook, it was brought to my attention. I would not post to that group even if I was a member- "They seem to know everything and do not want facts getting in the way of that".

 

[Sonnar Brian]

From an Auction- an early KMZ lens, "Maybe?"

The KMZ Jupiter-3's all have a removable rear fixture with the triplet held in place with a retaining ring. The retaining ring screws in deeper than the outer rim. The rear fixture should have two sets of spanner slots. The retaining ring on this one is overhanging the rim, and only one set of spanner slots is visible. What can cause this? Without disassembling the lens, impossible to know. It could be a later one piece barrel that someone moved the earlier glass elements and "made them fit". The problem: the shape of the KMZ triplet is different from ZOMZ and Valdai, it will not have proper spacing. I parted out a 1950 KMZ bought for $50 some 18 years ago because someone used the wrong rear triplet and I did not know enough then to figure it out. The lens could not be focused because the spacing was way off.

 

[dexdog]

Brian, I was wondering about this lens, auction ends later today. I had noticed that the construction of the rear element looked different (the two sets of spanner slots) than a couple of my 1951 J-3s that I think are legit. I am now kinda tempted to place a bid on this just outta curiosity.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

If you get it, let me know! I placed a bid assuming something was not right, was actually glad to be outbid.
I used up my last "authentic" early KMZ fixture transplanting glass from an early KMZ that was machined wrong. By Wrong: the spacing between the front element and front triplet was way off. Glass was perfect, because the lens would not focus. I bought a KMZ with bad glass to transplant the optics, worked out.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

My KMZ J-3 with a Serial Number of 56040xx, higher than any I've ever seen, arrived. I'm off from work for the next two weeks- and will be taking it apart tomorrow.
I've never seen a Jupiter-3 like this one. At first I thought someone had put a ZOMZ rear fixture into it- but focus is good. The Namering is KMZ, the front element and triplet have coating that is like my late KMZ's. The rear fixture has a guide ring in it like a ZOMZ. But- side-by-side with the 1956 ZOMZ, the metal side of the fixture is thinner. I'll know more tomorrow. It looks sharp through my TTL viewer, but needs to be adjusted.

 

[raid]

Could it be a hybrid KMZ/ZOMZ?

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I suspect it is more of a transition lens from KMZ to ZOMZ. If someone had used a ZOMZ triplet on a KMZ Barrel- it would not focus. The color of the lens coatings matches my 1956 KMZ, and is different from my 1956 ZOMZ. I'll know more tomorrow...

 

[nhchen]

From an Auction- an early KMZ lens, "Maybe?"

The KMZ Jupiter-3's all have a removable rear fixture with the triplet held in place with a retaining ring. The retaining ring screws in deeper than the outer rim. The rear fixture should have two sets of spanner slots. The retaining ring on this one is overhanging the rim, and only one set of spanner slots is visible. What can cause this? Without disassembling the lens, impossible to know. It could be a later one piece barrel that someone moved the earlier glass elements and "made them fit". The problem: the shape of the KMZ triplet is different from ZOMZ and Valdai, it will not have proper spacing. I parted out a 1950 KMZ bought for $50 some 18 years ago because someone used the wrong rear triplet and I did not know enough then to figure it out. The lens could not be focused because the spacing was way off.

Oops, I may have won it. Should have read your post earlier. Oh well, I’ll have to see how bad/good it is when it gets here.

nathan

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Nathan- You got the lens at a good price, and the glass is clean. When you get it, I would appreciate some test pictures back on a thread on this forum. The glass looks good, and the focus mount looks clean. That alone is worth the price even if some work is needed to set it straight. Jupiter-3's can be described as a "Jack in the Box" or as a "Can of Worms". If you have a Jack in the Box, always get a neat surprise in the picture quality, If you get a can-of-worms, "SOMETIMES" you just have to fish for some replacement parts. (I just made this up after taking apart 3 J-3's this morning on my first cup of coffee)

"I've seen stranger things!" Like the very late KMZ 1956 J-3 that just arrived. I've just compared the rear fixture with an earlier 1956 KMZ with the original styled fixture that is compatible with the Sonnar 5cm F1.5, and with a 1956 ZOMZ. The latest 1956 J-3 has a guide ring in the rear of the fixture, and threads at the front of the fixture- like the ZOMZ. The early KMZ have the threads up front, no guide ring to keep the fixture centered in the barrel. BUT! The wall of the latest KMZ is 2mm, identical to the earlier KMZ and the ZOMZ rear fixture rim is 2.2mm thick.
From
SO- This 1956 is a Jack in the Box. Focus is way off, which often explains why the lens is in great shape.

I know that KMZ was starting to run out of Schott glass and computed a new formula for the J-3 in 1954. The refractive index would be slightly different. This new design is listed as "PT-1635"
The SN scheme started over, probably for a test batch. As Schott glass ran out, this became "the standard production" and the Serial Number scheme "might have" reverted to the standard scheme. This design was handed over to ZOMZ, they machined the parts slightly differently. "All Speculation based on measurements, comparisons, and some observations of others".
This lens is going into my Sonnar Evolution articles!

"PT1635. New generation of Jupiter-3 lens, released by KMZ since 1955. Changed construction of diaphragm control, recalculated optical scheme (unconfirmed). New serial numbers system, starting from #000001. Very limited batch of these lenses released in 1955-1956. Lens below from private collection in Russia."
http://www.sovietcams.com/indexfcb4...._menu_i_id=451

 

[Sonnar Brian]

"I suspected this" on the KMZ- the focus mount is a 1970s ZOMZ. That's okay with me, they are quite good and the RF cam goes to infinity. I had to take the three-part helical apart to stop the cam from going too far past infinity. Some, mostly Black Valdai mounts, need to be repositioned as shown above. Only one set of taps for the focus ring. I was able to get everything back together, with the focus ring scale "close-enough". Just remember that the edge of infinity mark is really infinity.

When removing Set Screws and Guide Screws from a Jupiter Lens, and many Early lenses: Be sure to put them back in the same hole they came out of. Use in Ice Cube tray, use the Focus Index of the mount as a guide. Just trust me on this one...

This focus mount has never been apart- you can tell by the number of Taps for set screws. The person that made it did not bother to remove the metal filings before assembling the lens. The Ebay seller had no way of knowing this. I doubt this mount and lens were used. How do I know the glass is Early? By the color of the lens coating. The Zomz coatings in the mid1970s is yellow, the coatings on this lens match my 1956 KMZ's.

Lots of pictures. ZOMZ lens on the left when compared to the latest KMZ; KMZ 56040xx on left when compared to KMZ 56018xx.

ZOMZ Rear fixture has thicker walls than either KMZ, 2.2mm compared with 2mm.



Scribing on ZOMZ is different style and information than on either KMZ.



ZOMZ left, the latest KMZ right. Typical KMZ and CZJ Sonnars have threads at back of fixture, and no guide ring.



ZOMZ- newest KMZ 56040xx - and KMZ 56018xx.


All back together. This required 5 hours of work. The ZOMZ Focus Mount was misassembled, and focused way past infinity. Aperture did not align with index. Shim had to be increased almost 0.4mm, putting total at 3.3mm. That is huge, a result of the KMZ barrel in a ZOMZ focus mount. Really smooth and pretty now.


I had to complete disassemble the focus mount into all 3 parts, flood clean metal shavings, lube and reassemble.


Metal shavings- focus mount had never been apart. This mount is from the mid 1970s.



Three set screws holding the helical into the mount: ZOMZ and Valdai. 1 set screw: KMZ and Zeiss.




Side of the new KMZ matches that of the earlier ones.


Scribe marks are similar style to the earlier KMZ.



rear fixture of the ZOMZ and very late KMZ both have the guide ring. Thicknesses of the metal - different.



earlier KMZ, 56018xx, this fixture is compatible with CZJ Sonnars going back to 1934.



KMZ 56018xx


I've watched Ebay Auctions for almost 20 years. I've not seen KMZ Jupiter-3's with SN this high before, would have bought them. I suspect a "Factory Find" or something turned up some very late optical blocks and these were completed into "almost working" lenses. There were three 1956 KMZ J-3's with SN close to this one.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Wide-Open at F1.5 on the M9.





At F4,



At F1.5 again,



At F4,



At F1.5,



At F4.



Personal opinion- This is a KMZ Jupiter-3 recomputed and redesigned to use Russian glass. Observation- not as good as the other KMZ Jupiter-3's that I own and have shot with.
I'll do a comparison between this KMZ, my earlier 1956 KMZ, and with my 1956 ZOMZ. Glass on all 3 - exceptionally clean. After all- I've been cherry-picking for almost 20 years. And in that time- never seen another lens like this one.

 

[raid]

So this lens is interesting mainly for being different from the rest.

 

[nhchen]

Thanks Brian, I’ll report back once it get it and do a test. I agree the price was ok, but the shipping and taxes somehow was almost 50% of lens itself?!
Nathan

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Ouch. "International buyers must go trough Ebay's shipping hub and agree to their terms and fees."

It was listed as free Domestic Shipping. The cost of International Shipping for the US has soared. Even First Class International is several times what it was a few years ago. I suspect the "Ebay Hub" is going to collect customs in advance.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

So this lens is interesting mainly for being different from the rest.

Yes- I'm surprised by how little is actually documented on these lenses. Mostly hobbyists working on them, to make them usable. So many little details it's hard to keep track of, and so many variations it's hard to collect them all. RFF is lucky to have some very knowledgeable members here. It's a good place to collaborate. This lens represents what could be the first "All-USSR" Jupiter-3, prior KMZ Jupiter-3 lenses all have German Glass, German cut optics, and German parts to some degree.

Chris at Skyllaney has done the most thorough job of measuring the refractive index of glasses used, exact color of lens coatings, and thorough comparison of machining of the mechanical parts of Zeiss and Russian lenses of anyone I know. I've asked him if he has seen a KMZ like this one.

 

[TenEleven]

Regarding Brians earlier post about the KMZ J3 rear-fixtures. I have this lens to add. '56 serial. KMZ made.
It has a guide ring on the rear triplet mount. The lens performs decently, but opposed to a for example, wartime Sonnar, has a lot of field curvature and focus shift.

The lens looks like this:


The rear triplet mount looks like this:



Apologies for the brass splinters on the tissue I hadn't noticed before.

 

[TenEleven]

Perhaps also well suited for this repair nightmare thread is this 1948 Zonnar Krasnogork I bought off a Japanese seller.
When I got it, it was barely working:

• The fixing screws had been pasted in with copious amounts of glue
• The aperture was stiff and the aperture itself was swimming in oil
• The focus was unbelievably stiff and grindy
• The front ring had a dent which permitted only mounting the filter supplied by the seller
• Under the M/L ring there were several metal shims inserted to correct the following problems:
  • The lens RF focused beyond infinity
  • The lens itself focused beyond infinity
  • The lens mount was rotated 90 degrees to the left vs the "should" position where the focus scale faces topside
• Light haze on the glass surfaces facing the aperture

The aperture was very oily


Almost all screws had been replaced and glued into their holes


The lens was scaled in 'm' and you can also see the shims under the lens.

-----

When I got it the first order of business was to get rid of that cheap M/L ring and the shims:


Sadly the gluing wasn't the only crime done to this lens. As I would learn someone had forcefully attempted to undo it from its mount without removing the set screw - which likely led to the situation with the shims. Initial attempts to disassemble the lens ended in failure. And for the time being I removed the glass itself to put it in a safe place.


The Zeiss numbers inside were promising as was the 'm' scale - but sadly this lens had led a very rough life, inside and out.

 

[TenEleven]

After some sleep and the lens fixture and focus unit soaking in alcohol I didn't get much further. Only when I saw some debris in the benzene I had the inspiration of there being aluminum debris inside the lens fixture due to a previous forced removal (and then undoing of that) attempt.

I ended up tapping the lens all around with a wooden dowel. Then soaked it. Then tapped it again.

Eventually after an hour or so of this (plus 24h initial soaking) my perseverance was rewarded and it came apart:

Notice not only the Zeiss focus fixtures, but the brass pre-war style aperture actuator sleeve. You can also see drag marks from where the screw had been dragged along the lens housing as well as the hole it had been tapped into below.

I played with the focus unit but quickly realized that it a total write-off - even with replacement parts it wouldn't make a good user. Even with fresh grease there was some play, the focus would not be able to reach infinity if the lens sat "the right way around" and I would have to dremel into this historical artifact, which I did not want to.

A quick preliminary clean and repainting of the blackening also happened. To my elation the haze could be cleaned off completely. Sadly I have no pictures of the repainting as I didn't want to smear ink all over my phone/camera.

I decided to look at the aperture mechanism next:

Taking off the aperture retaining ring I found aluminum shavings. This lens likely never had been taken (this far) apart for service before.

After a complete disassembly and cleaning the aperture looked nice again.
While I had all the vulnerable parts out of the fixture I also doweled the dent out of the front-ring. Now any filter can be safely mounted again.


One can also see the number 597 engraved into the lens fixture, which corresponds with last digits of the serial engraved into the rear fixture.

One can also see the drag-marks of the previous repairers attempt.



724597 - meaning 2.724.597 in Zeiss parlance. 1944 - the Thiele has this as "Arriflex" lens.

Since the focus mount was no longer viable I cannibalized an older KMZ focus mount. This of course meant having to re-index the aperture as well, which I did.


There were metal filings inside again.

Once everything had been properly shimmed and adjusted it was all back together - now facing the correct way, clean and moving smoothly:




It went on to a focus test to see what the actual focal length of the lens was - aka was it worthy of the 'm' scale on the original focus ring -- and the answer is a resounding yes it's also a very sharp lens with barely any focus shift or field curvature, just like it's other 2.72 war-time brethren.

Also despite the "Arriflex" moniker in the Thiele book, it easily covers full-frame with no more or less vignetting than other war-time Sonnars.

I hope you enjoyed this excursion!

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Regarding Brians earlier post about the KMZ J3 rear-fixtures. I have this lens to add. '56 serial. KMZ made.
It has a guide ring on the rear triplet mount. The lens performs decently, but opposed to a for example, wartime Sonnar, has a lot of field curvature and focus shift.

That's just like the very late 1956 KMZ I have, and serial number is much less than a 5602xxx KMZ J-3 that has the older fixture in it. This means that both versions were being produced/sold simultaneously and used the same Serial Number scheme. Performance of the newer design is closer to the ZOMZ that followed.

NOW: how good is a 1956 KMZ using the older design?






Full images here:

https://ibb.co/album/w7dLyj

I'm not going to make people guess.
Top is a 1956 KMZ SN 56003xx, bottom is a 1950 KMZ J-3 with all Zeiss components and serial number stamped in the rear fixture.
Both images wide-open and with Orange filter.

This is with the C-Sonnar, wide-open and with an Orange filter. Earlier in the day, so not quite as bright. The shutter speed is maxed out on the M Monochrom on all these, so some over-exposure.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

It went on to a focus test to see what the actual focal length of the lens was - aka was it worthy of the 'm' scale on the original focus ring -- and the answer is a resounding yes it's also a very sharp lens with barely any focus shift or field curvature, just like it's other 2.72 war-time brethren.

Also despite the "Arriflex" moniker in the Thiele book, it easily covers full-frame with no more or less vignetting than other war-time Sonnars.

I hope you enjoyed this excursion!

New Dimension to "Can-of-Worms!"

An Amazing job, and Thankyou for posting. These early ZK lenses almost look like "Assembly Practice" on some. Cannot believe they left the filings in, I usually see that with much later Russian lenses. I have one 1950 KMZ with Zeiss serial numbers mounted in a Contax/Kiev mount using sewing thread around the threads of the optical block. The lens could not be focused, even with no shims- could not be set back in a Contax or Leica mount and focus.