Tales from the Greasy Side, 5cm f1.5 Sonnar "T" and More, SCARY, Lens Horror Stories!

New Dimension to "Can-of-Worms!"

An Amazing job, and Thankyou for posting. These early ZK lenses almost look like "Assembly Practice" on some. Cannot believe they left the filings in, I usually see that with much later Russian lenses. I have one 1950 KMZ with Zeiss serial numbers mounted in a Contax/Kiev mount using sewing thread around the threads of the optical block. The lens could not be focused, even with no shims- could not be set back in a Contax or Leica mount and focus.

Thank you, too after all your posting got me interested in Jupiters (and their fore-bearers) again. And I can totally believe that a lot of these are in fact assembly practice. It would have been less than a year after the moving of the materiel and machines to Krasogorsk - if one subtracts the time required to set up the machines, connect everything up to power/water, train the workers etc it's totally believable that the first 2-3 years were mostly spent figuring things out - especially since a lot of the original specifications documents had been "Operation Paperclipped" away by the US HQ.

That and with the lens that you mentioned in our conversations this is the third or even fourth lens that I know of that mounted at exactly 90 degrees of expected. I wonder if they accidentally used a die from Zeiss discard pile or some other sort of mistake. If I recall correctly one was a quite early (1952 I want to say) Jupiter-8 as well...
 
The "90 degrees out of Phase"- when I saw the lens sent to me to correct, thought of a special batch made for a special purpose camera. If it had been some random alignment problem, would not think that- but 90 degrees, makes me think of a camera mounted in a chamber or other fixed setup requiring the Index to by visible. The camera could have been mounted vertically and scale-focus was important for this application.

Would like to add- this thread, and similar ones being posted here are "Reverse Engineering efforts" by hobbyists. I've not seen this information documented elsewhere. It's not written down, but can be measured. SO- now I know how to tell if a KMZ lens has Russian or German glass in it. Just unscrew the rear fixture. Remember that!
 
The "90 degrees out of Phase"- when I saw the lens sent to me to correct, thought of a special batch made for a special purpose camera. If it had been some random alignment problem, would not think that- but 90 degrees, makes me think of a camera mounted in a chamber or other fixed setup requiring the Index to by visible. The camera could have been mounted vertically and scale-focus was important for this application.

That's a very good point and I hadn't considered that. Indeed it seems odd that it's exactly 90 degrees off and otherwise works as normal (in my lens case it would have if my predecessor hadn't ruined the focus helicals)
 
Three Hours well spent this morning, and three hours well-spent yesterday. Santa came yesterday, and gave me Two Jupiter-3s. Yesterday's project: 1951 KMZ J-3, perfect glass- "Something was wrong", required the shim to be increased by more that 1mm. That is huge. Cleaned and reseated the optics- also helped. It's on the M8 now.

This mornings project- The second lens- lots of corrosion on the mount, some old fungus marks, and some separation on the rear triplet. The retaining ring is out-of-round, and "crunched" the side of the mount when screwing in.

Spent hours on the mount. I use Silver Polish and 3M Polishing sheets made for fiber optic connectors. Corrosion on the inside of the focus ring will make for a rough focus, it is gone. Surface corrosion on the mount- gone. Some blemishes in the finish, but it is smooth. And I have a newly rebuilt $75 wartime Sonnar. Blemishes match perfectly. The retaining ring of the original 1951 J-3 in the mount and the retaining ring on the Sonnar are both slightly more than 7mm. Removing all shims, the Sonnar could not be screwed into the mount deep enough to focus past 4meters or so. The pre-war rings are thinner, closer to 6.5mm. I used one of my spares. This allowed the Sonnar to screw in deep enough, but had a very slight front-focus. I did a "cheat", moved the rear triplet out 0.06mm using sewing thread as a shim. Don't laugh too hard, I've seen this done on Jupiters before.The lens now focuses perfectly and the Aperture Ring lined up perfectly with the index mark.



I have a wartime Sonnar from this same batch, and it gets used. Perfect glass. This wartime Sonnar "cost a lot less". The Jupiter-3 mount is sturdier than the original wartime Zeiss Leica mounts. This one can be my "everday Wartime Sonnar".

I know why professionals charge what they do for their work, first-hand. I have a lot of respect for the jobs they do. This is "relaxation" for me. The tools go back into the drawer tomorrow, and it is "back to my real Job" - computers covering every inch of space on my desk.
 
The focus on the 1951 J-3 in LTM was not smooth though the full range of focus. Close inspection- some marks in the ring that passes under the focus ring. Took it all apart again- the underside of the ring was rubbing against the exposed portion of the inner helical as it moved out. I used the 3M Polishing sheets, cut into stripe to smooth out the inner portion of the focus ring and to buff out the exposed end of the inner helical. That fixed the problem. I ended up relubing the mount- was not quite smooth. Much better now, but being a 70 year old aluminum lens that saw a lot of use, a bit more grease to smooth it out.
 
I have had good results with Flitz metal polish and various grades of 3M nylon Scothbrite pads that are good on heavy corrosion or rust. I think that the purple ones are the finest grit available. For surface corrosion that does not produce pits in the surface, Flitz and a piece of cotton or linen cloth is outstanding.
 
Been geeking out with Jupiter-3's and the Basket-Case Sonnar.

The Sonnar is in LTM now, did some more testing.

Wide-Open on the M8, my "test camera". Dreary Day- no Sun, heavy overcast to light drizzle. Getting used to the new forum software- but these images can be "clicked" for full-resolution.






 
Nightmare first generation Sonnar 50/1.5 repair.
So, I finally worked up the nerve to attack a Nickel and Black Sonnar 50/1.5 I have had lying around for a year now. There had been several failed attempts (by me) to get the rear mount off - to no avail. In the meantime I found a dead 50/2 also Nickel and Black Sonnar of the same generation. The glass was completely ruined and not salvageable. Due to the different optical diameters a transplant from a collapsible or J8 was out.

The Nickel 50/1.5 Sonnar had its rear mount stuck in a half unscrewed position. Most likely from a previous persons repair attempt. As you can see below it had been unscrewed quite far but not enough to free it.

Of course in a state like that it would not reach infinity even on a Nikon body. It was a permanent macro-lens.

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I already had tried my entire repertoire of tricks: put it into solvent for a week, put it in an oven, hit it with a blow-torch, put it in a dummy mount and try to wrench it free, etc etc. No dice. The mount would not move. A transplant into a Jupiter-3 mount was out of the question for the same reason the 50/2 could not be saved. Different optical fixtures.

Anyhow, now with the dead 50/2 in my parts box as well I had a plan, but lacked the nerve to do it:
Sever the rear mount of the Black f/1.5 Sonnar and transplant the nice condition mount of the f/2 Sonnar.

However I was very wary because I knew that if I cut too deep I'd irreversibly damage the lens barrel of the f/1.5 Sonnar making it unusable. As a first step I used needle nose pliers and just brutally broke off as many parts of the mount as I could so that there would be less material to saw through and less likelihood of something to go wrong. Then I took a small hand-saw and got sawing millimeter by millimeter. Then I made another incision and carefully pried the piece away leaving the mount in a C shape which could then be taken off the lens.

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What I found inside confirmed why I had such trouble. The set screw that holds the mount had broken in half and the previous ... dare I say butcher... hadn't noticed this and had tried to wrench the mount off with great force - grinding the set screw into a fine paste. Somehow the female helical survived this ordeal(!). The picture below is a "re-enactment" of what I found with the exception that the male threads were full of ground up set-screw parts. No wonder it would not move.

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I also re-applied fresh lens blacking since the old one had flaked all over the aperture and become one with the oil on the aperture. Everything was cleaned as the debris from the wrecked set-screw had gotten into every last bit of the lens over time.

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Finally the lens is back together now and focuses right and works beautifully once again. I sadly didn't take too many pictures as you probably can guess this was a white-knuckle experience for me. Of course due to the female helical start being different on this mount the aperture index is offset so that it's on the top with the camera set to ~15 feet. A small price to pay. I guess I could eventually re-index the aperture but that would still leave an unsightly hole where the old index was on an now otherwise beautiful lens.

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No wonder Zeiss moved on quickly from this design.
 
Wow. Just Wow. I've had one wartime Sonnar with the set screw that holds the fixture for the rear triplet in place not screwed in all the way, and have to force the barrel out of the Contax mount. The Tap for the screw was not deep enough, and the screw head was left exposed. Laziness at the time of manufacture. I tapped the hole out correctly, replaced the screw. Converted to LTM with a Jupiter mount.

Yours was much worse! I've avoided this generation of lens as the prices are much more than those that followed due to rarity. Rarity because it is such a bad design that Zeiss quickly changed it! I have one 5cm F2 that is this age, was $75 on a "below RADAR auction". Enough to satisfy curiousity.
 
Brian beat me to the punch on this one, but I agree. Wow. Impressive lens hacking. I have a series 151 Sonnar 50/1.5, and it performs well on my Sony a7III. I cant quite put my finger on it, but it produces a unique signature that is different from the coated Zeiss-Opton and Carl Zeiss Contax lenses.
 
Side topic, if I may: How do you adventurers fabricate shims? Asking for a friend ;-/

I've made them out of aluminum foil, paper, even cut up a tubular leg from an old tripod and polished down.

But- I slowly built up a collection of shims by offering to convert Sonnar lenses to Leica mount, the person supplied the Sonnar and the Jupiter. The price... $25 and left over parts. Converted 50 5cm F1.5 Sonnars and about 20 5cm F2 Sonnars. Part of the Shim Plan, Part of the Plan. I looked into having some made- there is a reason why a real repair shop charges what they do, Machining shims, set screws, custom parts is expensive.
 
What Brian said already covers most of it.
I also went to the craft store to get thin vinyl sheets, copper sheets and various other (inorganic) materials so that I have a bunch of sheets of varying thickness to cut the shims from. For the thinner materials I just use x-acto knives and scissors.
 
On some lenses- where the shims are so narrow that you just cannot cut one yourself: I've used braided electrical wire. Use the number of braids to achieve correct thickness, be very careful when installing. These were for one-off jobs on lenses picked up as "as-is" need repair, and cheap...
 


From an Auction- an early KMZ lens, "Maybe?"

The KMZ Jupiter-3's all have a removable rear fixture with the triplet held in place with a retaining ring. The retaining ring screws in deeper than the outer rim. The rear fixture should have two sets of spanner slots. The retaining ring on this one is overhanging the rim, and only one set of spanner slots is visible. What can cause this? Without disassembling the lens, impossible to know. It could be a later one piece barrel that someone moved the earlier glass elements and "made them fit". The problem: the shape of the KMZ triplet is different from ZOMZ and Valdai, it will not have proper spacing. I parted out a 1950 KMZ bought for $50 some 18 years ago because someone used the wrong rear triplet and I did not know enough then to figure it out. The lens could not be focused because the spacing was way off.


Ok I finally got this apparently 1952 J-3 in the mail today. Overall it is in very good condition. Minimal marks on the glass and the barrel still has the yellow lacquer(?) on it. I unscrewed the lens and it is as you suspected only one set of spanner slots for the rear elements. The aperture ring is also not threaded. So is it a later lens where someone’s changed the id ring in the front? Compared to a 1958 one I have the coating is more purple than blue and the glass has quite a lot more yellow.

Strangely I couldn’t mount this lens fully on some of my Ltm cameras, couldn’t screw it in fully. On the few I could mount it on, the focus was way off. I didn’t have any shims but the lens block needed to move about 1.1mm out, I just temporarily unscrewed the threaded ring inside. The focus seems to be quite close now from looking at a piece of ground glass at the back of my camera. unfortunately I don’t have any digital cameras to test it on so will need to test on some film soon.

nathan
 
Nathan- I feel for you! I also dismissed my own advice and spent 8 hours yesterday correcting it...

https://www.rangefinderforum.com/nod...92#post4766392

Someone had taken a much later 1-piece barrel, left the rear triplet in place and then put in the 1955 KMZ middle triplet and front element. PLaced all back into the 1955 KMZ focus mount. I had a spare KMZ fixture with a rear triplet that is in good condition. SO- I bought the lens figuring the bet was covered. 8 hours on a snowy day, got it working.

Someone in the former Soviet Union has figured out that KMZ lenses draw a premium and is hacking them out. Would not mind if they hacked it out in working condition...

Most 1952 KMZ lenses: the rear triplet is uncoated. The front elements of late J-3's have a yellow coating.
 
I also went to the craft store to get thin vinyl sheets, copper sheets and various other (inorganic) materials so that I have a bunch of sheets of varying thickness to cut the shims from. For the thinner materials I just use x-acto knives and scissors.

I've got purpose-made brass shim stock in various thicknesses (some of them very thin) lying around the garage somewhere, left over from my transmission-rebuilding days. What I haven't figured out is how to cut it into thin rings that are perfectly circular. A craft knife works fine as long as you have something exactly the right size to cut around, but I usually don't. Anyone use a different method?
 
I've got purpose-made brass shim stock in various thicknesses (some of them very thin) lying around the garage somewhere, left over from my transmission-rebuilding days. What I haven't figured out is how to cut it into thin rings that are perfectly circular. A craft knife works fine as long as you have something exactly the right size to cut around, but I usually don't. Anyone use a different method?

No I pretty much use the same method you described and just have "dummies" for the most common sizes of shim for lenses that I work on that I then use as template to cut against. For other sizes I use so-called "Nail Scissors" their bent blades makes it a bit easier to cut round corners and their sharp points are usually enough to pierce the thinner shim materials.
 
I was going to try and 3D print some shims out of ABS and see if they’re suitable, since I would need one more than 1mm thick.

To cut perfectly circular rings would a set of large hole punches work?
Nathan
 
To cut perfectly circular rings would a set of large hole punches work?

Probably, but I would think typical lens shims might be 60mm or more in diameter, and I've never seen hole punches that big. I imagine manufacturers use tool-and-die methods to make them. I'm gaining more and more appreciation for Brian's stranded-wire trick!
 
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