Telling film from digital ...

Socke said:
Only problem is the roll I just got back where they cut the slides in the right third of the frame :bang:

That is the downside of film: processing mistakes, faulty cuts, dirt and scratches. A few years ago, the profi-camera store in Cologne, Photo Gregor, developed a test roll of b&w film as if it were color. Stupid stupid stupid.

But that was only a test to see if they could do it right, in the event I had to outsource. Here is the proof that even "professional labs" can fail miserably. Notice that my b&w film is taped to a color film.
 
Andy K said:
This is irritating too. Why are digital users so afraid to call it what it is?
It is NOT a digital darkroom, it's a computer and computer program.

Most of the teminology used in picture manipulation programs is from the darkroom and for a good reason, lots of people working with these tools learned their in a less computerized world.

Even the term computer was once aplied to people who calculated and later adopted for calculating mashines.

Actualy I'm realy happy I have this "daylight processing and enlarging facility", selling my apartment to get another one suitable to set up a darkroom is not an option 🙂
 
Kevin said:
Notice that my b&w film is taped to a color film.

Happend to me last year with two rolls of HP5. The salesdroid claimed the film was not exposed even after I mentioned the missing numbers over the sprocket holes to him.

I bought a Jobo tank, a changing bag and chemicals the same day somewhere else!
 
Andy K said:
Digital's sole purpose is the extermination of film and film cameras in order to make photography another part of the industry of built in obsolescence.

If some of us who like using film, who want to use film, who prefer film get defensive about our freedom of choice being deliberately taken away, is it any surprise?

Isn't obsolescence the whole history of film itself? 828, 620, 126, 127, disc, 110, aps etc etc etc. It's always been one big marketing scheme.

Digital isn't evil... some of the guys in marketing might be 🙂, but it's only continuing the tradition.
 
Socke said:
The salesdroid claimed the film was not exposed even after I mentioned the missing numbers over the sprocket holes to him. !

Exact same story. My android clerk refused to refund the processing costs and I have never returned since. Impudence!
 
Kin Lau said:
Isn't obsolescence the whole history of film itself? 828, 620, 126, 127, disc, 110, aps etc etc etc. It's always been one big marketing scheme.

No it isn't. We still have film, it has never become obsolete. Different film formats have come and gone, but there has always been film.

Now we are faced with the possibility of being denied the choice of using film purely because electronics manufacturers want to boost their profits. All digital products have built in obsolescence. There is always the push to 'upgrade': Bigger CCDs, better operating systems, larger storage, blah blah blah. The manufacturers are raking it in, and Joe Public is happily throwing his money away because he believes the hype and because he wants the latest toy with the most bells and whistles and shiny buttons.

Most of my cameras are twenty five years or older, they all do the same excellent job today that they did 25, 30, 40, 50, 60, or 80 years ago. No digital camera is going to give service like that. File formats are forever changing, CCDs are too vulnerable to damage, electronics are just plain unreliable.

I'll stick to film. If film disappears, I'll go into large format glass plate photography or maybe tintypes. But I won't succumb to the digital cash gobbler.
 
Andy K said:
This is irritating too. Why are digital users so afraid to call it what it is?
It is NOT a digital darkroom, it's a computer and computer program.

It is a digital darkroom, because that's the purpose and function. Using "photoshop" which would actually be the best description, would unfortunately be confusing due to the commercial usage of that name.

An appropriate name might be "digital home minilab", but that would take a few minutes to explain, but "digital darkroom" doesn't require much of an explanation.
 
Andy K said:
No it isn't. We still have film, it has never become obsolete. Different film formats have come and gone, but there has always been film.

Now we are faced with the possibility of being denied the choice of using film purely because electronics manufacturers want to boost their profits. All digital products have built in obsolescence. There is always the push to 'upgrade': Bigger CCDs, better operating systems, larger storage, blah blah blah. The manufacturers are raking it in, and Joe Public is happily throwing his money away because he believes the hype and because he wants the latest toy with the most bells and whistles and shiny buttons.

Most of my cameras are twenty five years or older, they all do the same excellent job today that they did 25, 30, 40, 50, 60, or 80 years ago. No digital camera is going to give service like that. File formats are forever changing, CCDs are too vulnerable to damage, electronics are just plain unreliable.

I'll stick to film. If film disappears, I'll go into large format glass plate photography or maybe tintypes. But I won't succumb to the digital cash gobbler.


I dig that rap !
 
Kin Lau said:
It is a digital darkroom, because that's the purpose and function. Using "photoshop" which would actually be the best description, would unfortunately be confusing due to the commercial usage of that name.

An appropriate name might be "digital home minilab", but that would take a few minutes to explain, but "digital darkroom" doesn't require much of an explanation.


Oh please! It's a computer and an image editing computer program. It is NOT a darkroom.
Digital users need to start being honest and stop trying to pretend what they do is the same as film photography. It is a totally different medium. They should celebrate that fact and stop trying to disguise what they are doing as film photography.

Btw, a photoshop is a place you go to to buy film, chemicals and paper.
 
GeneW said:
Bertram, it's neither professorial nor hopeless -- just logical.
Gene

Gene,
don' get me wrong , i did not say it IS a professorial or hopeless statement, I said it sounds to me like one and I meant my personal perception only.
And therefore I wanted to explain why I personally don't see any necessarity to jump into digital now nor do I believe that film will vanish completely , at least not within a time which is relevant for me, let's say 30 years ? (much more isn't left I suppose, damn it how could I get so stoneold without noticing it ???)

To the rest of your answer I agree at all points, excepted the quality issue, especially as far as B&W is concerned..

Best regards,
bertram
 
Andy K said:
Digital's sole purpose is the extermination of film and film cameras in order to make photography another part of the industry of built in obsolescence.
Conspiracy theories are, perhaps, best relegated to the National Inquirer. 🙂

No one is forcing people to choose digital. They're voting with their feet. I love film and dearly hope it survives, affordably, but the digital revolution is happening, and at two key levels. Many families that used P&S film cams are finding P&S digicams better suited to their needs, as well as being more fun. At the high end, many pros (with exceptions of course) are heavily embracing digital. It's because of this I was able to afford a used Hasselblad 🙂

As long as film lasts, I'll enjoy using these 'remaindered' cameras ... along with my digital cams, of course.

Gene
 
QUOTE=Andy K]Oh please! It's a computer and an image editing computer program. It is NOT a darkroom.
Digital users need to start being honest and stop trying to pretend what they do is the same as film photography. It is a totally different medium. They should celebrate that fact and stop trying to disguise what they are doing as film photography.

Btw, a photoshop is a place you go to to buy film, chemicals and paper.[/QUOTE]

I almost religiously stay clear of film vs. digital arguments because they very rarely lead to anything constructive. But, Andy, some historical perspective is in order here...

Near the turn of the 20th century, when photography was in its infancy, many artists, museums, etc. argued that photography could not be considered an art form because, they said, the photograph was made by a machine and chemistry. Both the camera-machine and the chemistry were villified in a sense. They were inhuman, un-aesthetic, cold, products of industry, etc.. This was the nonsense of 1905, for example, as echoed now in the nonsense of 2005.

Photography (chemical based or digital) is a medium for drawing which, in the case of both mediums, is made possible through applied science. There is nothing sacred about emulsions bound in plastic (or on glass, paper, etc.) exposed in a machine and made visible through chemical reactions. In the strictest sense, photographs are not handmade objects. They are objects created by machines which are guided by human beings. What are these machines? film cameras, digital cameras, processing tanks, JOBO processors, enlargers, print washers, computers, graphics tablets, dry mount presses, etc.. None of these machines is sacred. It's true that digital photography is dependent on electricity, but conventional photography depends on chemistry. Either way, it's a harnessing of applied science. There is nothing inherently romantic or noble about either electricity or chemistry. As photographers we have an absolute dependence on science. We need science and its discoveries for our mediums. The physical process of photography is emphatically not the same as a caveman scratching on one rock with another to make his drawings. That is to say, the medium is not the same, the caveman did not need science. But the result is the same, in the end - a picture.

From the late 19th century onwards, serious photographers ignored the naysayers and made strong visual art with then new photographic tools: Talbot, Cameron, Atget, Strand, etc., etc. They bent the machines and the chemistry to their wills. In the same way now, digital photographers are bending pixels and computers to their wills. The creative spirit that guides this harnessing of science remains the same. The change in the specific products of science being used don't change the fundamental task: people are using tools to make pictures.

So if someone wants to describe electronic picture processing as being analogous to chemical processing, so be it. The term "digital darkroom" is apt. That term doesn't "disguise" the process, it's just one way of describing it. Phrases like: "Digital users need to start being honest...etc., etc." don't have a sound basis. First of all we're not "users" (an ugly term that seems to have drifted over from computer science), we're photographers. Second of all, there is nothing dishonest about naming new processes via analogies with existing processes. The term photography itself is based on an analogy with drawing.

I'm amazed sometimes by the animosity some seem to have towards digital photography which is often accompanied by a strong romanticizing of chemical photography. It sometimes makes me wonder how many of these folks spent years in the darkroom breathing developer and stop bath and fixer. For me, it was twenty years, sometimes 8 hours a day, and so I don't romanticize chemistry at all. I have to imagine that the anger expressed towards digital photography comes in part from frustration with the increasing disappearance of films, enlarging papers, etc.. *That* frustration I can understand and I hope that these materials remain available. The best way to make that happen is not to rail against digital photography but instead to go out and buy lots of film and paper. I was sad to see Agfa in trouble because they donated the materials I needed for a large documentary project in Ireland years ago. But they have to run a business and if they can't sell enough product, it's curtains. People should be free to buy and not buy what they want...and they should be free to use whatever photographic or other medium they want.

Cheers,

Sean
 
Andy K said:
Oh please! It's a computer and an image editing computer program. It is NOT a darkroom.
Digital users need to start being honest and stop trying to pretend what they do is the same as film photography. It is a totally different medium. They should celebrate that fact and stop trying to disguise what they are doing as film photography.


When you start arguing over little things like how we name functions, then you're just arguing for the sake of arguing... have a good day. Don't forget to take some pictures.

Andy K said:
Btw, a photoshop is a place you go to to buy film, chemicals and paper.

Whatever you call it on your side of the pond is fine.
 
Andy K said:
Digital's sole purpose is the extermination of film and film cameras in order to make photography another part of the industry of built in obsolescence.

here, here! i think that this is the most frustrating aspect of our craft -- that at any moment, the makers of our tools can suddenly stop producing them under the pretense of "newer" and "better" technology. (i speak to kodak with that last comment)

(stepping onto soapbox) i agree that this has been a steadily, building trend and it is a discussion that extends beyond digital vs. film. it goes back to new models being released every year or every six months and the marketing machine that pushes the products. the marketing beast tries to make us believe that a new camera will do what we want better, faster and easier than the product they sold us last year.

our whole culture (and i speak on behalf of the american culture here) is a culture of disposable consumerism. we do not fix our microwave when it breaks, we buy a new one. we spend $89 on a dvd player and chuck it in a couple years when a new $89 dvd player is available that plays HD discs or whatever the next trend is.

the slow slaughter of film-based photography is another inevitable step in the beast of consumerism. buy it, buy it, buy it is not the answer to any question! (GAS is excluded from this argument, of course! 😀 )

i hope that there are other people who see the faultiness of this logic. hopefully, some of the corporate big-wigs at nikon, kodak, leica, fuji, canon et al see the value of keeping the film-based products alive -- for quality of images, flexibilty through film choices and extensively greater range of archiving options to name just a few.

>thump< (climbing down off her soapbox as the air was starting to get a bit thin up there). 😀
 
What puzzles me a little, and I must be missing something... is that with film cameras the users have a continuous need for new rolls of film, and processing services. With digital, the CF cards etc are reused (except for those odd folk who use them for storage, believing that copying them to a hard drive or CD will degrade the image, as they've been told). The consumables there are CDs and (if they print their own) ink cartridges and paper. I'd think the film-based consumables should provide more on-going profits than digital, making it more attractive in the industry. I must be missing something...
 
Sean Reid said:
I almost religiously stay clear of film vs. digital arguments because they very rarely lead to anything constructive. But, Andy, some historical perspective is in order here...

Near the turn of the 20th century, when photography was in its infancy, many artists, museums, etc. argued that photography could not be considered an art form because, they said, the photograph was made by a machine and chemistry. Both the camera-machine and the chemistry were villified in a sense. They were inhuman, un-aesthetic, cold, products of industry, etc.. This was the nonsense of 1905, for example, as echoed now in the nonsense of 2005....

<snip>

Cheers,

Sean

That comparison is totally flawed. Film and cameras were never intended to replace painting and it's tools. Digital is intended to replace film and it's tools.

Sean Reid said:
First of all we're not "users" (an ugly term that seems to have drifted over from computer science),

I am a film user, you are a digital user, I see nothing 'ugly' in being honest about my choice of medium to use. Yes digital imaging IS more closely related to computing than it is to film photography. Both are totally dependent on microchips and programming and without a computer a digital user has nothing but a small 1" x 2" image on the back of their camera.

...........................​

Doug said:
What puzzles me a little, is that with film cameras the users have a continuous need for new rolls of film, and processing services. With digital, the CF cards etc are reused (except for those odd folk who use them for storage, believing that copying them to a hard drive or CD will degrade the image, as they've been told). The consumables there are CDs and (if they print their own) ink cartridges and paper. I must be missing something...

You forgot the MAJOR thing with digital, the $1000+ camera itself is also a consumable. Storage costs a fortune, I can buy enough film, chemicals and paper to last me ten years with the outlay required to set up for digital, and I can use the same camera with no need to buy another for that entire ten years.

..................................​

If digital is so great, so wonderful, why is so much time expended on image manipulation to make the picture 'look like' it was made on film (by adding 'grain' etc.)? Surely it is a lot easier to simply use film in the first place? The necessity to make digital 'look like' film is a clear indication of dissatisfaction with the digital process.

For me the film v digi thing is best stated in a phrase I saw someone else use, I paraphrase:

Film = a homecooked sunday dinner
Digital = McDonalds.

But thats not a problem is it? Because as I've heard nearly every digital user say 'It's only the final image that matters', so, homecooked sunday dinner or McDonalds, they're both still food , right?
 
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Andy K said:
Film = a homecooked sunday dinner
Digital = McDonalds.

But thats not a problem is it? Because as I've heard nearly every digital user say 'It's only the final image that matters', so, homecooked sunday dinner or McDonalds, they're both still food , right?

No, it's more the frozen Pizza with some extras like fresh basil from my windowsill, salami from cows I knew personaly and fresh tomatos out of the green house in my sisters garden.

Color film from my TVS developed and printed at CeWe Color or EuroColor is more like Fastfood, I know what's in there but I'm allways surprised what comes out, if anything at all 🙂


Why do I develope my B&W and shoot slides for color? Less chances for a lab to mess it up!
 
Andy,

Photography was a direct extension of drawing and painting and, in some contexts, it did replace them. The first cameras obscura were drawing tools - the fixing of the image came later. The majority of modern portraiture is done today with cameras, not paint. Leaving aside the odd editorial cartoon and the funnies, newspapers are now primarily filled with photographs, not drawings. Advertising brochures primarily use photography and not drawings, etc.. Photography did indeed replace drawing and painting in some contexts. It did not, however, replace painting or drawing as a visual art medium. A 100+ years later, it's clear that strong visual art can be made with traditional materials or this, relatively speaking, new-fangled medium of photography. An artist like Cartier-Bresson or Lucas Samaras can choose among mediums and indeed both have worked with brush and camera. Digital capture just extends the breadth of options further.

It seems from your response that you didn't quite understand the post I made above. And it may be that you won't be able to see this issue from a larger perspective no matter what I try to write. And since writing clearly takes time and energy, perhaps, after this post, I better save it for a discussion that seems more likely to come to a useful end.

Near the time of photography's birth, there were many decrying and insulting the new medium because it relied upon machines and science. Now, with the birth of digital, we're seeing that kind of reaction all over again. It's an historical cycle and one can certainly choose what role he or she wants to play in that cycle.

I was a film photographer and exhibition printer for twenty years. When this new medium of digital came along, it took me a little while to see it for what it was. Once I saw that clearly, I embraced it. I hope that film, enlarging paper, etc. stay available for a very long time but I hope that some photographers will understand the birth of this new capture medium in a historical context. Once one can see that clearly, the cries against digital fade away. It just means that we now have more choices as photographers, neither method of capture is inherently better; each has pros and cons. The real problem, again, is the drying up of supplies for film photography because that restricts our choices. The solution for that is economic and hopefully film photographers will stem that tide with their wallets. Railing against digital capture won't solve that problem.

Cheers,

Sean
 
Sean,

As I wrote earlier, some people are just into the "us vs them" fight, and can't see above or beyond that. In fact, they can't even see that digital users like yourself, socke, myself and many others are also film users and see the issue from both sides. I think you've alluded to similar thoughts as well.
 
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