Telling film from digital ...

Sean, I understood your post perfectly, it is you who does not see the big picture.

If I choose to I can still go and easily buy the necessary equipment and materials to draw, paint, sculpt, whatever. The same materials which were available 150 and more years ago.

Digital is intended to eradicate film, to eradicate film production, to eradicate photographic paper, to eradicate paper production, to eradicate chemicals, to eradicate chemical production.

Like yourself, I too have seen digital for what it is. A scam to bring the 'you must upgrade every other year' mentality into photography, and to remove the freedom to choose what equipment you use and how long you can use it for.
 
I get my negatives developed at small shop in a strip mall that is on my way to work. I can drop a canister off in the morning and pick it up after work, very convenient.

Its an independent shop run by a very nice and cheerful lady.

I asked her recently if she had seen a decline in business due to digital. She said not at all, she's as busy as ever. Extra bonus for me, she does 120!

I think there are still a lot of folks out there that just want to point and shoot a roll and drop it off, not run it through an inkjet or a kiosk for prints. The traditional film development process does have a division of labor advantage. No fiddling with menus, deleting bad photos, downloading, uploading, printing. A veritable capitalist conspiracy to outsource labor to the consumer.

Maybe we can postpone the wake for film for a while.
 
The only clear indications of digital capture that I can think of are Moire patterns that appear in areas of fine repetitive detail.

Just to fan the flames of the above discussion:
We all know that keen hobyists must account for about 5 to 10% of the consumables market in photography. People who make a living from this do have a significant interest in digital technology and it was always those people who bought the vast majority of film. I don't think it's a conspiracy, it just makes sense. There will be digital cameras that leave film cameras for dead in every way but I'll use film , maybe along with digital, because I like it. I like the craft that's involved in developing film and making prints and I don't think there's any better reason than that to use one or the other. Whether it's better or not doesn't matter if you enjoy what you're doing.
 
Andy, if you say so, it must be so.

I go out and see if I can get some shots although it is raining.
 
There is no simple "what is better" answer and it really does not matter. Different strokes for different folks, just so long as there is a choice. I can agree that with digital consumerism has reach a new level with extremely short model life cycles. I have never understood how a $500 film body that has been gutted of most of its parts to house electronics and an LCD screen is suddenly worth 3 to 6 times it's original value. But, then I see value in Leica M bodies so it is just a case again of different strokes for different folks. Have fun create an image/photo.

Bob
 
Kin,

It's true and it's the main reason I have to remind myself to stay out any discussion that starts to even smell like " film vs. digital". On this forum, though, you sometimes find people who move something like this into an interesting discussion. So sometimes its worth a shot. Ah well... It seems often that people who become religious about one capture medium or another haven't had extensive experience with both. Those of us who have worked a lot with both tend to look at things differently.

Cheers,

Sean
 
Sean Reid said:
Kin,

It's true and it's the main reason I have to remind myself to stay out any discussion that starts to even smell like " film vs. digital". On this forum, though, you sometimes find people who move something like this into an interesting discussion. So sometimes its worth a shot. Ah well... It seems often that people who become religious about one capture medium or another haven't had extensive experience with both. Those of us who have worked a lot with both tend to look at things differently.

Cheers,

Sean

Actually Sean, I've been using and enjoying film since 1974 when my father bought me a Zorki, which I still use and which still works just as well today.
I am not religious about it and I resent the condescending tone of that comment.
I simply do not buy into the fast food, throwaway mentality of digital.
 
GeneW said:
No one is forcing people to choose digital.

Gene

Not directly. But this digital hype did not come outta nowhere , it was MADE.
Industry wants ROI for their invests and so they push this technology of course, strongly supported by the photo magazines and the other press too.
There is a opininon beeing made by assumed forecasts and announcements of giving up parts of the analog market and similar propaganda. Dealers are told that film will not sell in future and so they sometimes give that biz up before their own experience confirms this forcast.
No matter where you go there are always some who know that film is dead, but if you ask them why they have no clue, they just have read it or heard it .


AGFA Photo is a brilliant example of this paranoia, it was sold to that crook investor because the belgian AGFA board considered this biz to be too risky in future, NOT because the sales was going down.
They keep that as foresighted but it was anxious only. Decisions like this one contribute to a self-fulfilling prophecy, it is like the stock market where the lemmings run back and forth, driven by rumors and "analysts".

Most directors in industry are complete idiots who don't know nothing. They got there jobs because they can kick asses better than others can an so they all reach sooner or later the point where their job is bigger than their competence. Beeing idiots they must decide based on general opinions , MADE by others but valid because of beeing popular.
"nobody ever got fired because of buying IBM " is one of the jokes in the IT biz which discribes this rule of the incompetent.

So buying film and chem is not only contributing economically to keep that niche alive, it's also a kind of sabotage on the opinion-maker's work who try to teach us what the future is. Wouldn't it be nice if even our grandchildren would still have the choice ? Let's buy film, we are amateurs ! Digital is for pros, for them the choice is lost . Forever ! 😉
Best,
Bertram


.
 
Sean Reid said:
Andy,

Digital capture just extends the breadth of options further.

Near the time of photography's birth, there were many decrying and insulting the new medium because it relied upon machines and science. Now, with the birth of digital, we're seeing that kind of reaction all over again. It's an historical cycle and one can certainly choose what role he or she wants to play in that cycle.

I was a film photographer and exhibition printer for twenty years. When this new medium of digital came along, it took me a little while to see it for what it was. Once I saw that clearly, I embraced it.
Cheers,

Sean


Sean,

Allow me some questions to your words above :

Why does Digital capture just extend the breadth of options further ?

IMHO your comparison of the early days of photography and digital is historically illegal. The painters in those days regarded photographers as competitors, they were afraid that from now on each idiot could "paint " with such a machine and tried to keep their status as the true artists. Where is the parallel to digital nowadays?

Another question: WHAT did you see that made you embracing digital ?

Thanks,
Bertram
 
It has occoured to me, reading the words "chemical process" over and over again that moving toward a digital option for the majority of the snapshooters as well as the pros might be helpful to the environment, assuming a digital camera recycling programme.

To that end, I am offering my services to any and all who need to replace that EOS 1Ds II with the latest technology. PM me and I will let you know where to send them. As a limited time offer, I will not charge recycling fees to RFF members.

This thread is getting a little heated and while it is nice to see people passionate about photography I think that 'film vs digital' might need to be added to religion and politics in the 'what not to discuss in polite company' category...

Just some levity, no offense intended 🙂
 
cp_ste-croix said:
This thread is getting a little heated and while it is nice to see people passionate about photography I think that 'film vs digital' might need to be added to religion and politics in the 'what not to discuss in polite company' category...

so, how's the weather where you're at? 😉
 
Not to steer the subject back to my original question, but ...

Me said:
My question, how do people think they can tell, and can you really tell?

Some people swear they can tell, others swear that nobody can tell.

The two images originally in question are:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7934
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7933

They are both film, I know, I shot them. A guy I work with swore up and down that they were digital until I showed him the negative for one of them. 🙂

Can anybody really tell? 🙂
 
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Hi Bertram,

"Why does Digital capture just extend the breadth of options further ?"

Digital is, in my mind, just another capture medium. So we have a lens, a shutter, a light tight box as constants...the image is formed by the lens, frozen by the shutter and protected/located by the light-tight box. From those constants we can decide to record the image with all kinds of films or with various digital sensors. The core process that forms the image is the same but we now have an even broader range of choices as to the recording medium.

"IMHO your comparison of the early days of photography and digital is historically illegal."

Do you mean historically incorrect? I don't think it is at all.

"The painters in those days regarded photographers as competitors, they were afraid that from now on each idiot could "paint " with such a machine and tried to keep their status as the true artists. Where is the parallel to digital nowadays?"

Some of them apparently felt that way. But there was also a widespread objection to photography because it used a machine and chemistry to make pictures (rather than a pencil or brush on paper or canvas). That reliance on technology and science (such as it was at that time) made it suspect to some (and still makes it suspect to some to this day). Then it was, to some, the evil of the machine, now it is, again to some, the evil of the computer.

"Another question: WHAT did you see that made you embracing digital ?"

That's an interesting question. You know, I think, that I do this professionally and that I worked as an exhibition printer at one time. So my involvement in silver printing was pretty deep. The first thing that really grabbed me was Photoshop. I came to see that I could have a kind of control over the look of a picture that one could never have in the darkroom, even with a lot of training and years of practice. I also could work in the light (rather than the dark), I could see changes as I was making them and I could bring a "print" up to a certain point, save it, and then continue from that point. With a graphics tablet (which I've used since 1999) I could make these changes with a pencil, in effect, just as if I was drawing on paper (which I also do from time to time). So despite whatever romantic attachment I had to the darkroom (and I still have that) I found that I vastly preferred to be working in Photoshop. Photoshop was really a revelation for me. I decided to leap and sold several thousand dollars of darkroom equipment.

For awhile I scanned film but scanning is a slow, tedious process and I make a lot of pictures (professionally and personally). Film, paper and chemistry is also very expensive, especially when one is using a lot of all three. The initial costs for digital cameras, computers, etc. are very high but for someone who works a lot, digital ends up being a less expensive medium to work with, esp. for someone like me who does not change cameras every year. But costs aside, I very much like the workflow of digital cameras. I leave for a shoot with the lenses, camera bodies, charged batteries and empty cards (all of which can be re-used again and again). I get back to my studio, I download the cards and I burn the RAW files to CD. If I want, I can review pictures immediately and, if needed, prep them for clients. It's a workflow that, for me, feels natural and smooth. It also allows me more time to make pictures because I no longer need to spend time processing film, making contact sheets, making work prints, etc.. My time can really go to three things: making the pictures, editing and making the final prints (files). I also like being able to shoot in RAW and have source files that can go seamlessly into B&W or color, I like the feedback of the histogram in tricky lighting, I like switching cards every 100 exposures rather than film every 36 exposures. I like being able to vary ISO on the fly as needed...stuff like that.

For awhile, what held me back from digital capture was the absence of the right cameras for me. When the Canon D30 came out in 2000, I bought it and used it whenever I could. When I bought my 1Ds in 2002, I no longer had the need or desire to scan film (for new work). When the R-D1 came out, I was really "home". The cameras I'd used most with film were large format view and press cameras and small format rangefinders. I still have five or so Canon QL-17s but I don't shoot film anymore.

I'll say again that I hope film, chemistry and enlarging paper remains available for a very long time. That said, to each his or her own with respect to the capture medium. It's all photography.

Cheers,

Sean
 
Sean Reid said:
Hi Bertram,

"Why does Digital capture just extend the breadth of options further ?"
From those constants we can decide to record the image with all kinds of films or with various digital sensors. The core process that forms the image is the same but we now have an even broader range of choices as to the recording medium.
"IMHO your comparison of the early days of photography and digital is historically illegal."
Do you mean historically incorrect? I don't think it is at all.
" That reliance on technology and science (such as it was at that time) made it suspect to some (and still makes it suspect to some to this day). Then it was, to some, the evil of the machine, now it is, again to some, the evil of the computer.


Hi Sean,
first many thanks for your detailed answer ! It's been my fault forgetting that you make your living with cameras and that you must necessarily have another view on the whole issue. I admit as a pro I would use digital too, for most of the jobs at least

>>but we now have an even broader range of choices as to the recording medium.
That's true but does not concern me as an amateur, I never felt I needed another medium to catch the pic, digital postprocessing HAS advantages undoubtedly also for anmateurs. And I use it and like it because was teaching me so much about how to get a photo ready for printing or web presenatation .

>>Do you mean historically incorrect? I don't think it is at all.
Incorrect would have been the right word indeed, I took the more scientific "illegal" because I do not speak your language properly. Sorry.

>>" That reliance on technology and science (such as it was at that time) made it >>suspect to some (and still makes it suspect to some to this day). Then it was, >>to some, the evil of the machine, now it is, again to some, the evil of the >>computer.

Maybe for some it's the evil of computers, my objections are different anyway and relate primarily on the look and the tecnical quality of the pics. In other words it is the "prosumer" camera's output I still don't find comparable to the film standard I am used too, especially not if it comes to B&W. A EOS 1DS MkII produces output I'd be interested to experiment with but the camera is nonetheles not acceptable for me because of price and size and handling. Same the RD-1, tho size and handling are nice this camera additionally suffers from a crop factor I would not accept for the lenses I own.

As I said already digital imaging is a very different thing depending on the standpoint. I think a pro can't leave it aside if he wants to survive, but as an amateur i feel no need to think about a digital camera.

Mixing the views of pros and amateurs together in that discussion must lead to misunderstandings. My fault , sorry.

Best regards,
Bertram
 
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