huntjump
Well-known
When you guys say "Im just going to chuck it in the trash"...do you actually mean trash it or donate it?
I get you dont want to line the pockets of shady people, but throwing away good items just out of spite seems wrong.
Why not donate it to a school struggling to outfit their students with cameras? I know plenty of programs where students cannot afford to get their own cameras and share. There are also third world countries who'd put a $100 P&S to use, not to mention anything better.
Anyway, I get OPs frustration, but honestly it sounds like lack of online trading experience. Ive certainly had a few problems in my 10 years, but 4 in a row is either REALLY bad luck or partly your error of who you are selling to. RESTRICT your ebay seling to Continental US, i never sell on ebay international. THe chinese culture as someone said is all about haggling, you really have to live or travel there to understand. It is not "rude" to negotiate HARD, to them. If it is rude to you, do not sell to them.
Secondly, I would recommend selling locally or to only certain members on RFF to avoid any of your problems.
I get you dont want to line the pockets of shady people, but throwing away good items just out of spite seems wrong.
Why not donate it to a school struggling to outfit their students with cameras? I know plenty of programs where students cannot afford to get their own cameras and share. There are also third world countries who'd put a $100 P&S to use, not to mention anything better.
Anyway, I get OPs frustration, but honestly it sounds like lack of online trading experience. Ive certainly had a few problems in my 10 years, but 4 in a row is either REALLY bad luck or partly your error of who you are selling to. RESTRICT your ebay seling to Continental US, i never sell on ebay international. THe chinese culture as someone said is all about haggling, you really have to live or travel there to understand. It is not "rude" to negotiate HARD, to them. If it is rude to you, do not sell to them.
Secondly, I would recommend selling locally or to only certain members on RFF to avoid any of your problems.
If someone re-uses your pictures, or your text, that can be dealt with.
As for selling at a higher price, not much you can do about it except not sell to them again.
As for selling at a higher price, not much you can do about it except not sell to them again.
hipsterdufus
Photographer?
Understood. And again, the mods here dealt with my issue very quickly.
It is what it is. Regardless, I'm done selling cameras in general. Too much stress, too little reward. I'd rather not spend money or work overtime to make up the little bit of income I would have gotten from selling a camera.
Mr_Toad
Fluffy Marsupial
.
.
I really do appreciate this thread being posted...
All of you are helping me a great deal with your war stories, because I have to start selling some stuff just to downsize my life and find some cash. (My elderly mom moved in with me so we could save money, versus a nursing home, so time to reduce.)
Thanks for the info...
Robt.
.
I really do appreciate this thread being posted...
All of you are helping me a great deal with your war stories, because I have to start selling some stuff just to downsize my life and find some cash. (My elderly mom moved in with me so we could save money, versus a nursing home, so time to reduce.)
Thanks for the info...
Robt.
I sold a good bit of gear this year- enough to pay for the M9 and two fast Noktons. Most went quite smoothly. I've made some "Private Offers", and usually tell the person that they probably will not lose out, as they can sell it for more than what I am charging. Biggest hastle to me- unhappy buyer.
jan normandale
Film is the other way
The spirit of RFF has always had an element of helping newcomers and established members of RFF to enjoy the culture of film photography. There used to be a casual “hey I’m selling a GSN and Canonet . I’ll take the following price (usually below market) for the equipment.” I have bought from members and been treated substantially better than other sale sites because of the “RFF culture”.
Things are different now. People show up selling camera equipment and have 1 or 3 previous posts and want to sell a Noctilux or Titanium MP for full market value. We now have two separate worlds here and sometimes they collide. Selling for profit vs selling to the “RFF culture” at below market prices.
I’ve been deliberating this very situation and it’s one that has caused me to hesitate. I don’t want to sell to someone who is in the business of trading cameras I want to sell to enthusiasts. I know they may become disenchanted and I’ll risk that as part of the quid pro quo. But selling to people who will retrade a below market price to full market is not my agenda.
Some buyers and sellers are unscrupulous, I’d be upset too . Regarding the commercial auction sites… the pain is too great.
Things are different now. People show up selling camera equipment and have 1 or 3 previous posts and want to sell a Noctilux or Titanium MP for full market value. We now have two separate worlds here and sometimes they collide. Selling for profit vs selling to the “RFF culture” at below market prices.
I’ve been deliberating this very situation and it’s one that has caused me to hesitate. I don’t want to sell to someone who is in the business of trading cameras I want to sell to enthusiasts. I know they may become disenchanted and I’ll risk that as part of the quid pro quo. But selling to people who will retrade a below market price to full market is not my agenda.
Some buyers and sellers are unscrupulous, I’d be upset too . Regarding the commercial auction sites… the pain is too great.
benlees
Well-known
When I sell here, I sell at slightly lower price than market (which I research) because I want it gone fast. If someone buys it and tries to flip it, well good for them. Seems like a lot of effort for $50. This idea does stick in my craw a little, so I try to sell to people who I suspect will use the camera more than me.
__hh
Well-known
Well said !!!
Brian Legge
Veteran
And for those of you who are sentimental, if someone wants to sell me a significantly discounted J3 or Canon 50 1.4/1.2/etc, I'll promise to send periodic photos to prove its getting good use. 
I need to get a WTB classified ad up one of these times when I have enough to make a decent offer - ie when my car isn't dying.
I need to get a WTB classified ad up one of these times when I have enough to make a decent offer - ie when my car isn't dying.
Field
Well-known
I guess I will share some stories and thoughts.
The best community for selling gear in is the Audiophile world. There has been very, and I mean very, few scum bags. It is more like a gentleman's club. I have sold things I made for a bit over the price of what it cost me to people in Europe more than happy to pay the big shipping because the parts are nearly impossible to get there. They would essentially have to pay international shipping charges ten times over to get just the parts, then be charged higher rates for many of them because of who actually ship to their part of the world. (I am a DIY audiophile because I am freaking poor, too poor for Leicas) I have also sold many other things that were DIY audio stuff, some kits that I put together and sold for about what the kit cost.
The worst thing that happened to me was shipping an expensive turntable I bought with money from having a high paying job one summer. Apparently I was confused mentally to the point of being drunk when I packaged it. This was at a high stress and unhealthy time in my life. I ended up losing the turntable and around $500. The buyer hated me. Was it my fault? Yes but not in a way I could have done anything about at the time.
Selling specialty items is the best. I have made a couple thousand dollars selling equipment a lumber mill threw out (well sold for like $100) on Ebay in the industrial side. These people would be in trouble lawfully if they screwed up their own books let alone with me. That money payed for one semester of tuition and some rent. The point being the, more specialized the more likely your customer is to not mess with you. It is not worth selling overly generic items on the Internet that are worth nothing unless they are hard to come by and you want to do someone a favor, like RFF members.
One of the biggest problems is when people make a poor purchase to begin with, point blank period, double over, under, around, in your face, this is the one thing you need to avoid. If what you own is in good shape, and was worth less or equal to what you paid for it then you can expect to get an equal amount of money out of it. This is a clear complaint here. I have to say buying cameras online SUCKS. I want to pay the least amount of money because unless you get to see it in person you never know. Therefor you need to ask as many questions as possible to not get ripped off. By doing this as much as possible and feeling the most confidence in what I own and pay money for I am always able to sell stuff off easily when I need money. It sucks because I like to own things but I am poor! It is unfortunate that people always want their gear to be worth more than it is... Ebay is making it that way. Professional sellers are increases the prices of everything so long as there is a low number of the item available on the Internet. For example my Nikon F Apollo FTN (will be in classifieds tomorrow or when paypal get around to transferring) on Ebay is worth $450-550. If I listed on it I would sit on it for probably 6 months before a sale.
The smartest sellers are estate sellers (sometimes). They have bulk quantity of items so the margins are unimportant in many respects. The sell cheaper than anyone on Ebay, but not low enough that you can make money off of it without setting on it for 6 months or better.
I bought a Nikkormat FT for $70 but did not ask enough questions and now I have a junker. The guy thought he was being honest, and it would of made sense if the lens was in good shape... I paid shipping because it was a town over on craigslist. The problem is not that he was trying to be dishonest but the fact he had not investigated the camera enough, but would have if I asked.
How to sell on RFF, and what to sell.
First do not ever sell to anyone that has a shotty story and no posts. Only sell to people that regularly post and do not want to be booted from the forums.
Sell your expensive (couple hundred or more) investments based on how quickly you want it to go but always start at 75% of Ebay's lower buy it now (equivalent condition) price for fair value, or less for a quicker sale. (this is what estate people do basically)
In your post make it clear that international people are going to pay full on outrageous shipping costs plus a handling fee for your annoyance of filling out a dozen forums. Basically they are going to pay out the a**, so they better really want it.
Let the seller know every flaw no matter how insignificant it may be - all of which you should of been aware of at the time or purchase.
Ideas for breeding good community on the RFF classifieds.
Obviously no sales to people with no regular post contributions or without a great story. Keep a personal vibe to it.
Give things away to people that have a reason for owning it, when you are in a good position to do so... If your budget is tight then ask for shipping, packaging, gas, and $5 handling fee (probably will never come out to more than $20-30).
Group items worth little but as a bonus, and that cost money at dealers with equipment to breed good karma and friendliness. It cost you nothing, but would cost the person $10-20 to buy. You can not sell the items due to fees, at the low price. It is just a nice generous thing to do.
The more inner-circle trading, giving away or at good prices, the friendlier the place gets and the more likely you are to benefit from it by people preferring to buy from you or reciprocating a good deal.
The best community for selling gear in is the Audiophile world. There has been very, and I mean very, few scum bags. It is more like a gentleman's club. I have sold things I made for a bit over the price of what it cost me to people in Europe more than happy to pay the big shipping because the parts are nearly impossible to get there. They would essentially have to pay international shipping charges ten times over to get just the parts, then be charged higher rates for many of them because of who actually ship to their part of the world. (I am a DIY audiophile because I am freaking poor, too poor for Leicas) I have also sold many other things that were DIY audio stuff, some kits that I put together and sold for about what the kit cost.
The worst thing that happened to me was shipping an expensive turntable I bought with money from having a high paying job one summer. Apparently I was confused mentally to the point of being drunk when I packaged it. This was at a high stress and unhealthy time in my life. I ended up losing the turntable and around $500. The buyer hated me. Was it my fault? Yes but not in a way I could have done anything about at the time.
Selling specialty items is the best. I have made a couple thousand dollars selling equipment a lumber mill threw out (well sold for like $100) on Ebay in the industrial side. These people would be in trouble lawfully if they screwed up their own books let alone with me. That money payed for one semester of tuition and some rent. The point being the, more specialized the more likely your customer is to not mess with you. It is not worth selling overly generic items on the Internet that are worth nothing unless they are hard to come by and you want to do someone a favor, like RFF members.
One of the biggest problems is when people make a poor purchase to begin with, point blank period, double over, under, around, in your face, this is the one thing you need to avoid. If what you own is in good shape, and was worth less or equal to what you paid for it then you can expect to get an equal amount of money out of it. This is a clear complaint here. I have to say buying cameras online SUCKS. I want to pay the least amount of money because unless you get to see it in person you never know. Therefor you need to ask as many questions as possible to not get ripped off. By doing this as much as possible and feeling the most confidence in what I own and pay money for I am always able to sell stuff off easily when I need money. It sucks because I like to own things but I am poor! It is unfortunate that people always want their gear to be worth more than it is... Ebay is making it that way. Professional sellers are increases the prices of everything so long as there is a low number of the item available on the Internet. For example my Nikon F Apollo FTN (will be in classifieds tomorrow or when paypal get around to transferring) on Ebay is worth $450-550. If I listed on it I would sit on it for probably 6 months before a sale.
The smartest sellers are estate sellers (sometimes). They have bulk quantity of items so the margins are unimportant in many respects. The sell cheaper than anyone on Ebay, but not low enough that you can make money off of it without setting on it for 6 months or better.
I bought a Nikkormat FT for $70 but did not ask enough questions and now I have a junker. The guy thought he was being honest, and it would of made sense if the lens was in good shape... I paid shipping because it was a town over on craigslist. The problem is not that he was trying to be dishonest but the fact he had not investigated the camera enough, but would have if I asked.
How to sell on RFF, and what to sell.
First do not ever sell to anyone that has a shotty story and no posts. Only sell to people that regularly post and do not want to be booted from the forums.
Sell your expensive (couple hundred or more) investments based on how quickly you want it to go but always start at 75% of Ebay's lower buy it now (equivalent condition) price for fair value, or less for a quicker sale. (this is what estate people do basically)
In your post make it clear that international people are going to pay full on outrageous shipping costs plus a handling fee for your annoyance of filling out a dozen forums. Basically they are going to pay out the a**, so they better really want it.
Let the seller know every flaw no matter how insignificant it may be - all of which you should of been aware of at the time or purchase.
Ideas for breeding good community on the RFF classifieds.
Obviously no sales to people with no regular post contributions or without a great story. Keep a personal vibe to it.
Give things away to people that have a reason for owning it, when you are in a good position to do so... If your budget is tight then ask for shipping, packaging, gas, and $5 handling fee (probably will never come out to more than $20-30).
Group items worth little but as a bonus, and that cost money at dealers with equipment to breed good karma and friendliness. It cost you nothing, but would cost the person $10-20 to buy. You can not sell the items due to fees, at the low price. It is just a nice generous thing to do.
The more inner-circle trading, giving away or at good prices, the friendlier the place gets and the more likely you are to benefit from it by people preferring to buy from you or reciprocating a good deal.
segedi
RFicianado
While I'm willing to concede that using the original seller's photos and words is not a misrepresentation of the items. Nor is selling items for a profit unethical. Unlike say, someone on an auction site lifting an ad for products they don't actually own with the intent of ripping someone off.
I don't think we, any of us, should take copyright violations lightly. There are individuals and companies large and small that think they can make a profit off of others' words and images simply because they are published on the Internet. As someone who makes my living from creative work, this does not sit well. Professional or amateur, we should all retain ownership and the benefits of that ownership over our created works. Unless we sign over those rights...
segedi
RFicianado
Oh and when I sell at or below value, I remind myself that whatever it was and however long I've had it, the sell price is WAY below what I would have paid to rent the item for. Unless it was a $16 SLR kit that is.
benlees
Well-known
This cracks me up. Sure most of us have done that, and when we were done, we gave them credit. Otherwise its plagiarism. You'll change your tune if someone uses one of your photos without giving you your due!
jordanstarr
J.R.Starr
This cracks me up. Sure most of us have done that, and when we were done, we gave them credit. Otherwise its plagiarism. You'll change your tune if someone uses one of your photos without giving you your due!
Maybe the "quoting an idea from an essay" was a bit of a poor example I pulled off the top of my head, but it's not far off. Think of it this way, if you bought the camera and met someone face-to-face and used essentially the same wording as the person who posted that item online, do you really think that is morally wrong? If so, that would crack me up. It's a description of an item, not a work of art, some literary masterpiece or original philosophical thought. You're basically just stating what is there.
"Leica M6 TTL -mint condition, a few scuffs on the bottom plate, but the top plate is mint. Shutter is working good"
I said it guys...now don't use it unless you quote me. Now that seems a little silly, doesn't it?
Of course if someone took my portfolio images and used them for something, I would be angry. My portfolio images are very different from the pictures of take of products to sell. I think you'll be hard-pressed to find any of the images in the classified section on that same members website.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I'm of the mindset that if you sell something to someone who flogs it on eBay or elsewhere two days later for a decent profit so be it ... that's the way the world works.
Personally, what happened to the OP would p!ss me off also but not to the point where I'd lose sleep. There's only two types of people in the world after all ... buyers and sellers and it's been going on since some ancient discovered he could trade that old moth eaten Mammoth hide lurking in the back of his cave for something of much better value.
Personally, what happened to the OP would p!ss me off also but not to the point where I'd lose sleep. There's only two types of people in the world after all ... buyers and sellers and it's been going on since some ancient discovered he could trade that old moth eaten Mammoth hide lurking in the back of his cave for something of much better value.
Out to Lunch
Ventor
After reading the post and plowing through the testimonies: don't sweat the small stuff.
hipsterdufus
Photographer?
I wouldn't say that I'm losing sleep over it; it's just an added stress on top of a lot of other things going on in my life right now. The house needs a new roof, the air conditioning is not working, etc.
This is just another thing on top of all of that. All of this together is probably making me more sensitive than I should be.
matthewm
Well-known
I don't think we should be insensitive towards the OP. And I don't think it's as much about using his photos and description as it is about him trying to pay it forward and give someone a good deal on good equipment to keep the trade moving and they just want to make a profit on it.
Sure, Walmart and Target do it everyday on every single thing we buy. But here on the forums, it's different. We share a sort of camaraderie here and being able to buy gear here (usually) ensures we're getting quality gear at a good price. I mean, if I posted a $2000 item on eBay, I'd have posting fees, final value added fees, PayPal fees and shipping fees. I'd end up losing 5% or more in fees and shipping alone.
Here on these forums, I can sell a $2000 item for $5. Typically to someone who will use it and appreciate the craft of photography. It's disheartening to sell someone something on the forums only to see it posted for more money a week later and to add insult to injury, they falsely advertise it as something it clearly isn't.
Ebay is another story. That's just a melting pot of people having to increase their prices to balance out the ever-increasing fees.
I think what the OP is trying to say is that it's frustrating when you try and do something good for the betterment of your craft and people are out to just flip it for a quick buck. Yeah, yeah... It's going to happen, but it doesn't mean we can't talk about it. Otherwise, what are these forums for?
Hope you get your roof and your A/C fixed.
Sure, Walmart and Target do it everyday on every single thing we buy. But here on the forums, it's different. We share a sort of camaraderie here and being able to buy gear here (usually) ensures we're getting quality gear at a good price. I mean, if I posted a $2000 item on eBay, I'd have posting fees, final value added fees, PayPal fees and shipping fees. I'd end up losing 5% or more in fees and shipping alone.
Here on these forums, I can sell a $2000 item for $5. Typically to someone who will use it and appreciate the craft of photography. It's disheartening to sell someone something on the forums only to see it posted for more money a week later and to add insult to injury, they falsely advertise it as something it clearly isn't.
Ebay is another story. That's just a melting pot of people having to increase their prices to balance out the ever-increasing fees.
I think what the OP is trying to say is that it's frustrating when you try and do something good for the betterment of your craft and people are out to just flip it for a quick buck. Yeah, yeah... It's going to happen, but it doesn't mean we can't talk about it. Otherwise, what are these forums for?
Hope you get your roof and your A/C fixed.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
These things leave a bad taste in your mouth unfortunately and I quite understand your reaction. Especially when you're selling something against your better judgement to keep your head above water.
'Every dog has his day' ... as they say!
hipsterdufus
Photographer?
Just an update for those that are bored/interested. The latest guy that was trying to negotiate shipping charges with me on the M42 setup sent me a message stating that his teenage son was the one who bid and that his son wanted to back out of the transaction, hence the "negotiation".
This guy then asks me to send him another invoice for the equipment. At this point, I'm done dealing with the guy. This stuff already sounds fishy. I don't respond to his message. I then get an unsolicited payment from the guy for $20 over my initial shipping cost. Even more fishy...
By the way, I looked this guy up on facebook and his whole "teenage son" BS doesn't really seem to hold up. The guy has pictures with his grandkids. Hard to imagine a grandfather also having a teenage son (oh yeah, no pictures of the teenage son, either). Is this the world we're living in now? I think this guy is half(or more)-crazy.
Any recommendations on dealing with this whacko? I talked with my wife and she just told me to refund his money and ignore any further communication with the guy. So far, that's what I intend to do.
This guy then asks me to send him another invoice for the equipment. At this point, I'm done dealing with the guy. This stuff already sounds fishy. I don't respond to his message. I then get an unsolicited payment from the guy for $20 over my initial shipping cost. Even more fishy...
By the way, I looked this guy up on facebook and his whole "teenage son" BS doesn't really seem to hold up. The guy has pictures with his grandkids. Hard to imagine a grandfather also having a teenage son (oh yeah, no pictures of the teenage son, either). Is this the world we're living in now? I think this guy is half(or more)-crazy.
Any recommendations on dealing with this whacko? I talked with my wife and she just told me to refund his money and ignore any further communication with the guy. So far, that's what I intend to do.