Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I think it's a great thread with some fascinating dialogue but IMO it's starting to get very convoluted which will ultimately make people reluctant to participate ... start another thread and eventually the same will likely happen.
I think the idea of a 'gloves off/no rose coloured glasses' photo critique is excellent but we possibly need to implement it better ... but how? Dropping a photo into that thread at the moment is a little like trying to pick out the viola in the string section of the orchestra ... you may never hear it!
We have had a critiquing forum here for some time but it seldom gets used because no one really wants to offend the poster and many of the people who post in it don't really want their images dissected ... they are really after affirmation a lot of the time and the 'brutal' truth will likely send them running. A while ago I remember someone posting an image in that forum then vehemently disagreeing with any negative comments that were aimed at it's composition, intention, merit etc and eventually the OP stormed off in a huff!
This totally honest warts and all photo critiquing is great for those that want to be involved in it ... but how do we do a better job of making it available and easier to follow?
I think the idea of a 'gloves off/no rose coloured glasses' photo critique is excellent but we possibly need to implement it better ... but how? Dropping a photo into that thread at the moment is a little like trying to pick out the viola in the string section of the orchestra ... you may never hear it!
We have had a critiquing forum here for some time but it seldom gets used because no one really wants to offend the poster and many of the people who post in it don't really want their images dissected ... they are really after affirmation a lot of the time and the 'brutal' truth will likely send them running. A while ago I remember someone posting an image in that forum then vehemently disagreeing with any negative comments that were aimed at it's composition, intention, merit etc and eventually the OP stormed off in a huff!
This totally honest warts and all photo critiquing is great for those that want to be involved in it ... but how do we do a better job of making it available and easier to follow?
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
that's why i opened my own brutality thread with a shot and put two more into it, later. Worked out nicely - got sone useable feedback and some chuckles, too - some were brutal but nothing too unfriendly - and then it vanished as it was intended
i expected people will drop their own shots and/or critiquing the critiques will restart there, but it didn't
so, i suggest just do the same if you want but i would propose only one per member, not more simultaneously, or the forum will be overcrowded
Boring or too nice shots will be naturally filtered out due to lack of reaction
i expected people will drop their own shots and/or critiquing the critiques will restart there, but it didn't
so, i suggest just do the same if you want but i would propose only one per member, not more simultaneously, or the forum will be overcrowded
Boring or too nice shots will be naturally filtered out due to lack of reaction
nongfuspring
Well-known
I think it best for anyone who wants their work critiqued to make their own thread and ideally post a few photographs rather than one.
daveleo
what?
I said so back in the early pages of that thread - it's a confused, interlaced mess of counterpoints.
I will also add that, having read much of it, I must agree with comments that uninformed criticisms easily and often do more damage than good. Elevating those "rules / counter-rules" comments to the argument level (read that thread!) is ludicrous.
Most people there are taking their own opinions way too seriously.
EDIT: there is also the pretense there that if you say "I LOVE IT !" . . . you're being a polite whimp. Absurd !!
I will also add that, having read much of it, I must agree with comments that uninformed criticisms easily and often do more damage than good. Elevating those "rules / counter-rules" comments to the argument level (read that thread!) is ludicrous.
Most people there are taking their own opinions way too seriously.
EDIT: there is also the pretense there that if you say "I LOVE IT !" . . . you're being a polite whimp. Absurd !!
Sparrow
Veteran
I one does the job properly you are asking the critic to spend a lot of time analysing the images ... well I do anyway twenty-thirty minutes minimum
... great capture off the cuff first impressions or glib opinion is no use to anybody
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
i don't think that is correct.
The thread asks for brutality. Saying just "i love it" is therefore off topic in there. Always nice to hear of course, that someone loves what you produced but in THAT thread it IS a polite whimp comment (doesnt make the whole person a polite whimp of course)
daveleo
what?
It asked for "brutal honesty" ...... I LOVE IT is brutally honest.No?
You basically proved my point here. The pretense is that your comments (if you play along) should be brutally negative.
Mcary
Well-known
I think anyone who understands how online critiques work knows that any image that they post is going to be publicly torn to shreds and call a piece crap and need to ask themselves what they can learn/how they can benefit from that experience before making the decision to participate. People who are not prepared for such an experience may be better off directly contacting peoples whose work they admire via message or email and asking for a one on one critiques. Now they may be told the exact same thing but at same time not having the entire world see dozen of people post how crappy your work is can make being told that a bit easier.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Most of what I'm reading in those threads is ok and wouldn't bother me personally provided there is an intent to be constructive.
If someone just chimes in and says "hey your photo sucks" it will get untidy very rapidly methinks. In those circumstances I would be out the door pronto!
If someone just chimes in and says "hey your photo sucks" it will get untidy very rapidly methinks. In those circumstances I would be out the door pronto!
nongfuspring
Well-known
If people are asking for critique just saying "I LOVE IT" (or "I HATE IT") isn't particularly useful. Any response, positive or negative, needs to be rationalised. Once it's rationalised then the photographer can A. judge wether or not it is valid and B. if it is valid then find actionable steps to improve based off of that criticism.
daveleo
what?
I understand what you are saying. However, my personal reaction to many images is "I love the way it looks and feels" and I don't rationalize that to myself or to the image-maker. (I also say to myself "I hate the way it feels" at times.)
I don't care to analyze the technicalities of why a picture "looks and feels" good to me. Which is why I rarely rarely dish out "critical" remarks to people. And also why I slipped out of that thread. It's not for me.
And . . . I am not a whimp. I just don't take my opinion that seriously
nongfuspring
Well-known
True, which I think is the reason why each photographer wanting critique should start their own thread, to keep things clean and focussed. As it is now it is a torrent of images and criticism that has become very convoluted. I don't think you can expect many people to concentrate when 3 or 4 different conversations on 3 or 4 photographers are taking place in the same thread.
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
No,
my point is simply that "i love it" is not brutal honest critique.
I was sure somebody will come back with this.
Let's be honest, and look at that thread title in the right context.
Or ask Frank what he was meaning with it, if you really don't want to believe me (which you don't have to).
Or, if you wanna go that way,
"brutal
: extremely cruel or harsh
: very direct and accurate in a way that is harsh or unpleasant
: very bad or unpleasant"
(merriam-webster)
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brutal
So here's an example for brutal honesty:
Stop talking nonsense
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
with that i can agree.
Sometimes i feel that a detailed critique is too forced, trying desperately to motivate why something is good (or bad).
Regarding my own images, i can perfectly accept if someone says "i don't like it" (or it sucks, or any other level of brutality) without meticulously motivating why he hates it. It means it just doesn't work for him. First impressions are important and can tell a lot even without extra words or explanation.
And ultimately, talking statistically, if everybody says they hate it, or if 99% says i hate it but there are a few who say i love it, or if it's fifty-fifty, - it all means something! Also if noone gives a diddly squat about it, it means something
paulfish4570
Veteran
frankness should not be confused with honesty.
nongfuspring
Well-known
with that i can agree.
Sometimes i feel that a detailed critique is too forced, trying desperately to motivate why something is good (or bad).
Regarding my own images, i can perfectly accept if someone says "i don't like it" (or it sucks, or any other level of brutality) without meticulously motivating why he hates it. It means it just doesn't work for him. First impressions are important and can tell a lot even without extra words or explanation.
And ultimately, talking statistically, if everybody says they hate it, or if 99% says i hate it but there are a few who say i love it, or if it's fifty-fifty, - it all means something! Also if noone gives a diddly squat about it, it means something
Yes though this kind of response is useless at best. Superficial responses lead to superficial improvements. Useless critique produced at volume doesn't give useful statistics either; changing (or not changing) one's work in accordance with popular opinion is a poor strategy. In fact if there is any rule of thumb to be learned from art history it is that the most influential voices tend to be near uniformly reviled once they start to make anything interesting.
You can have negative criticism made for the right reasons, and positive criticism made for all the wrong reasons. The most important thing is that the photographer gets to know the how and the why, and the critic has enough reflective judgement to contextualise their comments.
The unexamined life isn't worth living, the unexamined opinion is not worth having.
Mcary
Well-known
Personally I consider myself as a I got the message person. Meaning that receiving a honest and detailed critiques is something I considered very useful and welcome. Now having a bunch of people repeat/say the same thing quickly becomes rather tiresome. One person say something, well maybe that's something I should consider another person says the same thing or similar should really consider/think about whats being said. A third people well then I start to get a bit irratated
daveleo
what?
To some extent, I agree with you, but ....
How about the un-examined feeling. What do we do with those?
Your picture looks and feels good.
Why?
I can't explain it.
Then your comments are of no use to me. Your feelings are not worth having.
That just does not work for me, sorry
The inability (or hesitation) to articulate (even to yourself) why a picture makes you feel something does not make your opinion worthless. (In my opinion.)
I simply think you worded those last sentences too strongly.
