The brutal critique thread .....

Every time I have seem a thread started like this, the OP kicks it off with what is clearly an excellent image - then they say, all humble pie, 'Gosh folks, I'm not really sure about this, what could POSSIBLY be done to improve it?'

I have to say that really p-sses me off. I can recognize when someone has an exceptional image, even if the framing is not perfect, or it has the infamous 'blown highlights', or what have you. Can the rest of you honestly not see for yourself? Actually, I think you CAN, which is why everyone asks for a 'critique' of what they know is a good shot.

One of my friends on RFF once asked me in a PM what I could have possibly been thinking when I took a particular photo - THAT was the nicest critique I ever got!

Randy
 
daveleo said:
To some extent, I agree with you, but ....
How about the un-examined feeling. What do we do with those?


Your picture looks and feels good.
Why?
I can't explain it.
Then your comments are of no use to me. Your feelings are not worth having.


:(
That just does not work for me, sorry
The inability (or hesitation) to articulate (even to yourself) why a picture makes you feel something does not make your opinion worthless. (In my opinion.)

I simply think you worded those last sentences too strongly.
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Feelings might seem abstract and inexplicable, but they're a product of instinctive value judgement. It's the emotions that we feel most strongly that are the most important to reflect on because without review we're left ourselves open to the weaknesses of unjustified prejudice.

I don't want to mean that feelings are not relevant because they definitely are, but if we're supposed to engage in constructive discussion around photography those feelings need to be addressed in a way that makes them an opportunity for discussion rather than a roadblock to meaningful articulation. It's not a matter of wether or not feelings are worth having since they are here anyway, but what isn't a given is for it to actually be a useful starting point to something constructive, and for that to happen difficult work is required on behalf of the critic.

So, I think rationalisation is essential to any meaningful exchange, I do stand by my statement (but of course wether or not I live up to that personally is another issue!).
 
zauhar said:
Every time I have seem a thread started like this, the OP kicks it off with what is clearly an excellent image - then they say, all humble pie, 'Gosh folks, I'm not really sure about this, what could POSSIBLY be done to improve it?'

I have to say that really p-sses me off. I can recognize when someone has an exceptional image, even if the framing is not perfect, or it has the infamous 'blown highlights', or what have you. Can the rest of you honestly not see for yourself? Actually, I think you CAN, which is why everyone asks for a 'critique' of what they know is a good shot.

One of my friends on RFF once asked me in a PM what I could have possibly been thinking when I took a particular photo - THAT was the nicest critique I ever got!

Randy
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i'm not sure about that, man... i see plenty of hopeless shots posted that make me ask "why???"
and the author has plenty of self confidence to think it is something special and/or it can be further improved by minor changes/ideas on things like cropping...

Yes of course there are plenty of good - excellent/extraordinary/whatever - shots posted as well, asking for critique or opinions, but that's normal, i think we all want to show what we already CAN do and want to improve on the already chosen direction, and not put up what WE ourselves think it's our most useless junk - not (only) for matters of pride but simply because it would be too much work anyway to rise crap to a pedestal.
 
@nongfuspring

Okay . . . I understand now what you are saying, and I pretty much agree with your longer version . :)
 
Keith said:
I think it's a great thread with some fascinating dialogue but IMO it's starting to get very convoluted which will ultimately make people reluctant to participate ... start another thread and eventually the same will likely happen.

I think the idea of a 'gloves off/no rose coloured glasses' photo critique is excellent but we possibly need to implement it better ... but how? Dropping a photo into that thread at the moment is a little like trying to pick out the viola in the string section of the orchestra ... you may never hear it!

We have had a critiquing forum here for some time but it seldom gets used because no one really wants to offend the poster and many of the people who post in it don't really want their images dissected ... they are really after affirmation a lot of the time and the 'brutal' truth will likely send them running. A while ago I remember someone posting an image in that forum then vehemently disagreeing with any negative comments that were aimed at it's composition, intention, merit etc and eventually the OP stormed off in a huff!

This totally honest warts and all photo critiquing is great for those that want to be involved in it ... but how do we do a better job of making it available and easier to follow?
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maybe another critiquing forum that wishes honest, harsh critique in which every participant has his own thread where only she/he is allowed to post any of her/his photos?
With rules, just suggesting, that e.g. one can only post maximum one photo a week or after the last one posted has received a certain number of critiques?
 
I too gave up on the 'other thread'! I thought it was full of ill considered nonsense and wasn't very helpful at all. Trying to impose your own thought on another photographer isn't the way to progress - some form of dialogue is needed.
Randy makes a good point:
'One of my friends on RFF once asked me in a PM what I could have possibly been thinking when I took a particular photo - THAT was the nicest critique I ever got!'
And I remember a colleague saying to me that 'you never really learn anything until you nearly know it anyway' - I can't say that I fully agree with that but it's an interesting point of view.
So my way would be to ask the photographer some questions and hopefully be able to respond to the answers given. Also perhaps something like, 'you must have thought about cropping this photo on the left side to get rid of 'x', what made you decide to leave it as it is? The improvement starts from within the photographer and can't be imposed. I can't see that 'brutal comment' can be at all helpful unless it's between good friends, and then it's the start of a dialogue.
 
In a real life situation, a classroom for example. There is a mediator (the instructor) moving things along and keeping the topic on track.
No... I'm not volunteering I'm far from qualified :p
Who is qualified?

I think with an internet forum all you can do is hope for the best and continue onward if such a thread is desired.
If it meanders a bit, that's just what it needs to do. Not everyone here has actually ever participated in a "live" critique session. It will be dificult to mimic online with so many members.
 
Keith said:
I think it's a great thread with some fascinating dialogue but IMO it's starting to get very convoluted which will ultimately make people reluctant to participate ... start another thread and eventually the same will likely happen.

I think the idea of a 'gloves off/no rose coloured glasses' photo critique is excellent but we possibly need to implement it better ... but how? Dropping a photo into that thread at the moment is a little like trying to pick out the viola in the string section of the orchestra ... you may never hear it!

We have had a critiquing forum here for some time but it seldom gets used because no one really wants to offend the poster and many of the people who post in it don't really want their images dissected ... they are really after affirmation a lot of the time and the 'brutal' truth will likely send them running. A while ago I remember someone posting an image in that forum then vehemently disagreeing with any negative comments that were aimed at it's composition, intention, merit etc and eventually the OP stormed off in a huff!

This totally honest warts and all photo critiquing is great for those that want to be involved in it ... but how do we do a better job of making it available and easier to follow?
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Right on, Keith. Thanks for your help! The reasoning for a thick skinned critique forum is exactly what I was thinking.

Maybe people with an image to be brutally honestly critiqued can start their own thread dedicated to just their single image, in this critique sub forum.
 
jesse1dog said:
. I can't see that 'brutal comment' can be at all helpful unless it's between good friends, and then it's the start of a dialogue.
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Thank you for your thoughts! Brutally honest comments are not for everybody, but it's useful to have this option if you want to access it.
 
I actually found reading the full thread interesting (including catching a few posts before mods deleted them). There is value in seeing the degree of variation in critique quality.

There are a few very well thought out, informed, highly useful critiques in the thread. There were also some (quickly deleted) which said something along the lines of 'I find the photo visually offensive, you should delete it and never show it again'... and no more.

...

A longer running image critique thread which may be of interest to some is over at the 'Hardcore Street Photography' flickr group (https://www.flickr.com/groups/onthestreet/discuss/72157637994366446/). I haven't followed in it in a while, but it often focused on the brutal side with very strong points of view about the acceptable range of content as well as the critique of the photo itself. If you want brutal, terse and occasionally nasty it is a decent thread to check out. Skimming the last few pages it looks like they mellowed out a bit recently.

Edit: Pointing out HCSPs thread because its a model of how I see 'brutal/brutal honesty' critique threads play out. While obviously some people get value from the one there - and there are certainly some good comments - they are often drown in less useful or ones seeping in personal content taste over more objective views.
 
My two cents: at least in this setting, there will not be any useful ''critiquing'' if it is not done by experienced photographers. Critiquing should be done by RFF members with a professional track record.
 
Coming to this conversation late, but I will repost a variant of what I suggested there for consideration. This time I will simply pose questions.

What place does 'brutal' have in thoughtful adult critique?

How many women RFF photographers do you notice taking part in any thread that affirms 'brutal' as a valid component of engagement?

When in your own life is 'brutal' okay?

What is lost from the quality of critique when participants agree not to use sarcasm, swagger, mockery, name-calling, insult, braggadocio--anything that treats words as a vehicle for aggression?

What is gained when participants agree to communicate with empathy as well as candor?

Thanks to Keith for starting this conversation.

********

[FYI I deleted my own post from the other thread once it was clear that the OP planned to stick to the 'brutal honesty/no whining' paradigm. That's his privilege, as it is mine to depart in peace from any thread that valorizes any form of aggression, however well-camouflaged or -intended.]
 
Brian Legge said:
There are a few very well thought out, informed, highly useful critiques in the thread. There were also some (quickly deleted) which said something along the lines of 'I find the photo visually offensive, you should delete it and never show it again'... and no more.
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What I said was "...and never think of it again."
 
I think rhl-oregon rather reinforces one of my points - ask questions to move on a person's thinking - thanks Robert!
I'll take up on one of his questions:
'What place does 'brutal' have in thoughtful adult critique? '
I'm pretty sure that there is little if any place for it! Seems it's one of the quickest ways of getting people steamed up and fractious when there is no need. The more I think about critique the more I wonder about it's value at all. By all means show a photo to a 'friend' with an explanation of what you were trying to do and ask if they think you have managed that. Continue with - how do you think I might have been able to do it better. I don't think critique is possible or can be useful without a known context.
 
Please don't misconstrue my intentions. I used the word brutal simply to differentiate the nature of my thread from the usual critiques here where either people offering critiques are too polite to say anything too negative (or say nothing for fear of insulting), or when someone does freely speak their mind, the poster of the pic being criticized gets all hurt, melodramatic, and argumentative.

Daveleo, you seem to have a lot of problems with this thread, maybe just don't participate, as anyone else who doesn't think that this is a good idea, should do.

The brutal honesty critique thread is meant only for consenting adults.
 
burancap said:
I tried, having never done anything like it before. I seemed to be rapidly paved over by critics critiquing criticisms.
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I know. It drifted, but that's what a natural conversation does too.

As mentioned before, how about those folks wanting a brutally honest critique, start a new thread for each new image, in the critique sub forum, with an indication in their title, of what type of critique they are hoping for.

Could range from brutally honest, to: just tell me that I'm brilliant or i'll get upset, and anything in between.
 
FrankS said:
Daveleo, you seem to have a lot of problems with this thread, maybe just don't participate, as anyone else who doesn't think that this is a good idea, should do.

The brutal honesty critique thread is meant only for consenting adults.
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Frank, I quietly slipped out of that thread. I posted I think 4 pictures, but have been out of it for a lot of pages now.
I went into it very enthusiastically if you recall. It evolved into something I didn't want to play. Since then (over here) I have simply been trying to explain how I feel about it. It works for some people, but here's why it doesn't work for me ....
And my remarks have never meant to be personal.
 
daveleo said:
Frank, I quietly slipped out of that thread. I posted I think 4 pictures, but have been out of it for a lot of pages now.
I went into it very enthusiastically if you recall. It evolved into something I didn't want to play. Since then (over here) I have simply been trying to explain how I feel about it. It works for some people, but here's why it doesn't work for me ....
And my remarks have never meant to be personal.
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No worries, Dave! Not taken personally.
 
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