the day i lost faith in leica

[kehng]

today is a day i never thought would come. i have loved leica cameras since i bought my first m6 years ago. then i bought an m7, m8 then an m9 brand new. the m9 had its quirks and faults but i always forgave them as i loved my camera and all the lenses i accumulated over the years. then the sensor delam story broke. ahhh... i am fine i thought. i trust leica to sort it out. thats their reputation after all. then while working in thailand i notice that my sensor was a dirty so took it to a local leica dealer who cleaned it for me. when i got back to london i did so again in mayfair. a couple of weeks later a strange wiggly line appeared on all my shots. took it back to leica only to find out that the sensor is damaged. maybe its a delam problem says the fella who cleaned it for me a few weeks prior. lets send it to germany. germany sits on it for a few weeks then comes back saying the sensor is badly scratched. its gonna cost around £500. are you sure i ask? i had even been contemplating upgrading to the m9p while it was in solms so this was disconcerting to say the least... we will double check... a week later.... yep. definitely a scratch. and now the bill is £650! you know what leica... forget it. you have lost me now. i have never cleaned this sensor myself and have babyed this camera since day 1. i am out. this is the day you lost me.

what should i do next? i had agreed to proceed with the sensor replaclement until i double checked the quote. i am now thinking of just jumping ship and finding anothet digital option. why would i repair my camera at such cost let alone ever buy one of their products ever again??!

 

[Ned Bojic]

If its really scratched, why would they give you a free sensor, then?

 

[Kwesi]

Sorry to hear this.
1- if you have the camera with you, take some pictures a f16 at a clear sky or wall and look at the image on screen. post here if you need a second opinion.
2 - if its a scratch, do you have receipts/proof of cleaning at leica? if so send it along to Germany.
3- if its indeed a scratch, remember this can happen to any other digital camera and as such
its not a good enough reason to switch brands.
if you make enough of a fuss through your delay they may replace it for free.
4- Just a thought but perhaps you can demand the new sensor with the improved cover glass then sell it and put the money towards the typ 240.

 

[zuiko85]

Since the only service it has had is from Leica arthorized service then they should take care of it. I see why you are angry, I'd be a lot more forthright with them than you.

 

[thompsonks]

"... a couple of weeks later a strange wiggly line appeared on all my shots."

If it were scratched in cleaning, the problem would have appeared in the first shot you took. Do you mean you didn't use the camera for a while, or used it but didn't notice the problem – or that it struck out of the blue, some time after the cleanings?

Assuming the cleaning caused the scratch, it seems to me this falls in a kind of gray zone. I know several people who've taken their M9s to a dealer for an expert opinion on whether stuff on the sensor was dirt, or corrosion. If an authorized Leica dealer scratched the sensor while checking to see if there was corrosion, maybe Leica should bend a bit?

Kirk

 

[kehng]

unfortunately the camera is with leica at the moment. but i do have receipts and can show them my files which demonstrate my case. i think the final straw for me was sneaking in a higher value invocice without mentioning price as an attachment to the email.

i used to buy into leica as i always felt protected and that my investment into their system was going to be worthwhile. this feels like i have been left completely exposed and i think it is time i look elsewhere where the cost to entry is not £5000 and the after sale service isnt so harsh.

 

[13Promet]

Assuming that the sensor was scratched while cleaning, the service centre is responsible for it rather than Leica AG.

 

[Kwesi]

unfortunately the camera is with leica at the moment. but i do have receipts and can show them my files which demonstrate my case. i think the final straw for me was sneaking in a higher value invocice without mentioning price as an attachment to the email.

i used to buy into leica as i always felt protected and that my investment into their system was going to be worthwhile. this feels like i have been left completely exposed and i think it is time i look elsewhere where the cost to entry is not £5000 and the after sale service isnt so harsh.

You should show them your receipts.
Are you certain it's not sensor corrosion? I had mine replaced for corrosion. Post an image if you are uncertain.

 

[d2mini]

i am now thinking of just jumping ship and finding anothet digital option.

Bummer about the scratch and I can understand your frustration.
But as to the quote above, I can tell you from experience that you just won't find another camera that will give you the same shooting experience. Everything else is vanilla in comparison.

 

[willie_901]

The difference between a scratch and delamination is not subtle. Delamination will appear more irregular at the borders of the defect.

At the same time a scratch can trigger delamination. This is because delamination is caused by humidity and even a very faint scratch can expose the IR filter layer to humidity. It is possible a scratch that would otherwise have no significant impact on IQ (except perhaps a very weak, thin artifact at f 16 or f 22) becomes an obvious problem due to the labile properties of the IR filter layer. This is not your fault.

The response you received from Leica essentially identical to the formal policy change they announced late in 2014 stating M9 sensor repairs for delamination would no longer be covered by warranty! They community outcry resulted in a reversal of this policy. How could the revised sensor replacement policy not apply to your camera?

I suggest you find Leica's formal statement regarding M9 delamination and send it to Leica. If you have a family member or friend who is an attorney, it would be great if they sent the letter.

It is entirely possible the sensor surface was disrupted before you even opened the box of your new Leica. The disruption could have been so small that it was irrelevant. Even Leica's quality control could have missed an extremely faint, thin defect. But the defect would be huge compared to the size of water molecule ensembles. Exposure to heat and humidity would result in an obvious defect.

Even if the Leica dealer scratched your sensor, and you did not notice any defects until the camera was in a warm, humid climate, Leica should fix the problem.

Consider the case where you owned a camera with an IR filter layer that does not decompose when exposed to water. Suppose you took this camera to an authorized dealer for cleaning and the technician caused a sensor cover-glass scratch identical to the one your Leica might have suffered. Since you didn't observe any issue before your trip, the scratch would be irrelevant. You would never know it was there.

 

[mfogiel]

"as i always felt protected and that my investment into their system was going to be worthwhile"
- That was in the film days, nowadays cameras are disposable items of limited life cycle.

 

[Travis L.]

Assuming that the sensor was scratched while cleaning, the service centre is responsible for it rather than Leica AG.

Absolutely.

 

[Phil_F_NM]

It was Leica reliability that soured me on their new products.
My issues with the M8 and M9 I purchased new are well documented in posts and threads I did years ago but basically, it came down to their cameras reliability, or lack thereof, that made me jump back to Nikon.
I love their old, mechanical film cameras and still have one, my trusty, combat hardened M4 with DR Summicron. I'd not hesitate to buy any older mechanical Leica, even an M6 classic would be great, but never will they see another cent from me.

Phil Forrest

 

[uhoh7]

Faith is often disappointed 🙂

I hear stories like this about both Canon and Nikon FF cameras.

Warranty nightmares? Leica is little league.

Google "Nikon Impact Damage warranty" if you want an earful.

Your mistake was letting anyone else clean your sensor. Do it yourself and you have some control.

There is no sure absolutely reliable digital camera in the real world. Any of them may stop at any moment. Luckily most take a licking and keep on tickin'

 

[tajart]

and it seems like your exif info will support dates and frame #sequence, before cleaning/after cleaning. it does seem that an authorized leica dealer is responsible for knowledgeable service. i've experienced differences of opinion, and costs from different tech support at leica; i then processed files with the questionable - dust, corrosion, marks on the sensor - outlined or circled using photoshop. this helped them zoom in on the details. perhaps a second opinion from a different technician better identified the problem. in the end it diagnosed that my m9 suffered from the sensor corrosion issue and leica replaced it as part of the goodwill program.
i was about to jump the digital ship and return to my leica film camera, but the new m9 sensor and service has kept me on board.
good luck

 

[gb hill]

Bummer about the scratch and I can understand your frustration.
But as to the quote above, I can tell you from experience that you just won't find another camera that will give you the same shooting experience. Everything else is vanilla in comparison.

I disagree. I read blogs of a lot of content Fuji shooters out there who use to shoot Leica.

 

[CameraQuest]

before the sensor corrosion problem,
M9's had more than their share of cracked sensors.

SFAIK no official cause was ever acknowledged by Leica, but many suspected a faulty sensor batch from the gitgo, or faulty installation procedure which stressed the sensor.

the cracks were often mistaken for scratches, and vice versa.

it might be good to have an independent repair facility to confirm you are really dealing with a scratch.

 

[RedLion]

Digital cameras in general are a very poor investment. A digital Leica is an oxymoron because of this.

Here's the unavoidable fact:

Digital Camera: Use it as a tool to take LOTS of photographs and when it breaks throw it out.

Classic Film Camera: Use it as a tool to take photographs for a lifetime. If it does ever break, get it fixed. Only certain film cameras can qualify for classic status, such as Leica, Rolleiflex and a few others. Basically, you want a mechanical camera that does not depend upon electronics, except maybe for the meter only.

 

[p.giannakis]

It was Leica reliability that soured me on their new products.
My issues with the M8 and M9 I purchased new are well documented in posts and threads I did years ago but basically, it came down to their cameras reliability, or lack thereof, that made me jump back to Nikon.
I love their old, mechanical film cameras and still have one, my trusty, combat hardened M4 with DR Summicron. I'd not hesitate to buy any older mechanical Leica, even an M6 classic would be great, but never will they see another cent from me.

Phil Forrest

I totally agree.

Although i do not have a personal experience with these cameras, the amount of posts that come to light from time to time from frustrated buyers just shouldn't happen when you pay this premium. At least i haven't noticed something similar with the D3x or D4.
I know... apples bla bla... oranges blah blah.. but when it comes to reliability it is the same.

 

[dmc]

Sony A7Rii, you'll have state of the art, 42 MP, and you can still use all that fine Leica glass. Oh, and full frame.