Other/Uncategorized The "Real" Poor Man's Leica?

[NickTrop]

I've never owned or even held a 4K, so I can't make a judgement there. I just never had the urge, even for $15. I do like the Gabriel & gb hill suggestion to take a look at a Zorki.1.

Except they fit none of Nick's criteria - no lever winder, removable back, slow speeds, 1/1000, or flash synch. (Of course, my Leica.IIIs have slow speeds, but none of the other qualities either. 😉 ) And it's likely, even with much patience and diligence, you'd end up looking high and low to find a Zorki.1 for even 4 or 5 times Nick's 4K money. So a Zorki.1 Po.Man would have to change criteria and add some dollars to the pot.

But if it's a Po.Man's.Barnack you're after, the Zorki.1 is just pretty darn close in size and feel... IMHO. Again, I've never even played with a 4K, so I can't compare, but I also very much like the quality build of the Zorki.1. Mine works quite nicely and feels tough as a tank.

I'm with ya 100% though Nick on the Summar choice. I've mostly been shooting 35 & 28mm lately, but my Summar is the one 50 I carry along.

I went round and round on it and considered the Feds, other Zorkis, but came around to the Zorki4. I'm a little leery of the price, but perhaps the cameras aren't worth as much as the lens. I know the FSU 50's are supposed to be very good, and from my experience with the MF Kiev 60, I have full confidence in FSU glass, but I wanted one without a lens (have too many 50's already in various mounts...) Low and behold, two were up on the bay.

We'll see how I fared when it comes in. Almost wish it was a little more pricey. The lens, however, is in very good condition optically. Not even light scratches but the barrel has lots of light scratches.

This will go off to DAG after I play with is a spell.

Another Summar fan, I see. Why do people hate this lens?

By the way - that's a sweet looking kit.

 

[Matthew Allen]

Some interesting thoughts in this thread. Forgive my lack of knowledge, but are there any issues of focus calibration when using Leica glass on FSU cameras? I was under the impression that even though the mounts were interchangeable, it was possible that without adjustment the Leica lens wouldn't focus correctly.

Matthew

 

[raid]

This will go off to DAG after I play with is a spell.

Nick,

You do know the cost of sending items to DAG?
Maybe this is the best way; get something at low cost and then have it CLA'd by one of the very best repair people.

Raid

 

[raid]

Some interesting thoughts in this thread. Forgive my lack of knowledge, but are there any issues of focus calibration when using Leica glass on FSU cameras? I was under the impression that even though the mounts were interchangeable, it was possible that without adjustment the Leica lens wouldn't focus correctly.

Matthew

Matthew: This is a good point that you have raised. I usually use FSU lenses on Leica cameras, and I have not found any problems yet. Maybe someone using Leitz lenses on FSU cameras can give us clarifications. I am sure that Brian Sweeney could help out here.

Raid

 

[reagan]

"Another Summar fan, I see. Why do people hate this lens?"

My reading has indicated the Summars have a rep for being "soft" as opposed to [I presume] the "tack sharp" of other Leitz glass.

I guesstimate focus 90% of the time, so obviously tack sharp is just not that important in my world. The soft quality was actually rather inviting. But I found, as Raid's great shots demonstrate, there's just not much lacking in the Summar.... IMHO.

After paying a dirt.cheap.po.man's.price, mine came as stiff as a corpse with a bumper crop of fungus and a prize winning deep scratch in the front element. The barrel has 70 years of scratches as well with brass showing on several fronts, which, BTW, meshes well with my brass laden Barnacks. I gave it a good kitchen table clean and lube, eradicating the fungus with balsamic vinegar, removing/replacing old grease and praying over the scratch. :angel: It'll never be a showpiece, but I'm quite content with it's performance. Looking forward to your findings on the 4K. Poor.Man's.Leica sounds like a good ongoing experiment.

Matthew, I only have two Leica lenses; the Summar and an Elmar 9cm. Both are 1936 vintage. So in my limited experience (and failing eyesight 😎 ) as far as Leica lens on FSU bodies, thus far I've only used these two lenses on Zorki.1s and have had no problem. I consider myself fortunate.

But I would hazard a guess that there's no guarantees either way; that they'll work or need work. Despite what the factory's original intent was, in both Germany and Russia, the fact is, old cameras and old lenses that are 50 to 70 years along have almost assuredly been taken apart and put back together numerous times by pillaging bunglers like me. And even the best advertising photos don't reveal the aftermath's condition. You just can't know what has been mis-aligned, mal-adjusted and generally screwed up until you get it in your hands.

Should they work? Yes. Can they work? Yes. Will they work when you first pull them out of the brown paper wrapping and yak hair string? Who knows? "Finding out is the fun part..." the voices tell him as he awaits the postman with twitching eyes and trembling hands. 😱

 

[erikhaugsby]

Nick,

You do know the cost of sending items to DAG?
Maybe this is the best way; get something at low cost and then have it CLA'd by one of the very best repair people.

Raid

This is what Sherry Krauter sent me when I asked how much lens CLAs cost:

A lens comes apart in basically 2 halves: Lens head, (elements, diaphragm blades, and assembly), and Focusing mount. If I work on either half; it is

$65.00, plus shipping. A full overhaul is $95.00, plus shipping.

 

[raid]

Matthew, I only have two Leica lenses; the Summar and an Elmar 9cm. Both are 1936 vintage.

Here are two examples taken with a war time Elmar 9cm/4:

B&W:

http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=5880924

Color:


http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=58755&ppuser=3565

It is one of my favorite lenses.

Raid

 

[raid]

This is what Sherry Krauter sent me when I asked how much lens CLAs cost:

Erik: Good to see you here; DAG charges very similar rates. Both are top in their work.

Raid

 

[Kent]

Sorry to hear that your set was stolen, Raid.
_______________

I use a FED-3b with an Industar-61 L/D and a Jupiter-12 as my "poor man's Leica".
Works excellenty. I was even able to adjust the rangefinder myself. Would never try that with a Leica...

 

[Matthew Allen]

Thanks for the answers Raid and CVBLZ4.🙂

Matthew

 

[Tegla]

I have 3 kiev's (1 is from my granddad) and one Leica R4 with Summicron 50/2, it is funny that even my wife can tell that Jupiter lens are better than Leica's. Everybody is making me crazy, but photo's speak for itself. I love Kiev. I would say that Kiev is a poor man's Leica.
BTW I just paid and waiting for Mamiya 6MF, can't wait to leave my PentaconSix aside (it makes perfect photos, but it is heavy)

 

[charjohncarter]

NickTrop, I agree, I had one of these lens (f2.0 Summar) 45 years ago. Some of the photos of my girlfriend from this lens are great. Especially, wide open. I'll post one when I find them.

 

[raid]

charjohncarter,


The Summar is one of the Leitz Great lenses. Could you post some of the old photos that you have taken of your girlfriend?

Raid

 

[murrayatuptown]

Does the postman have the twitching eyes and trembling hands?

I know they can get nervous about funky packages form exotic locales.

Anyway, question on the balsamic vinegar. Doesn't it have alot of sugar and other stuff in it? Do you rinse afterward with anything else?

Just in case anyone wants to try it, don't use it to glue lens elements!

Thanks

 

[reagan]

"...question on the balsamic vinegar. Doesn't it have alot of sugar and other stuff in it? Do you rinse afterward with anything else?"

I applied the balsamic vinegar with Q-tips, 2 or 3 applications, let it dry for several minutes after. Then cleaned all surfaces with Zeiss [moisturized] Lens Cloths. It worked quite well, for me.

 

[ChrisPlatt]

Maybe Leicas are rich man's FSU cameras... 😉

Chris

 

[ruben]

"The Poor Man's Leica" is a miserable consummerist concept, used in magazine reviews to praize and ridiculize at the same time low cost cameras of good performance, taking for granted that Leica, or its high price, is the ultimative camera as the starting point.

The consummerist concept is that by owning the ultimative camera you either are a better photographer, or that by spending big bucks you are someone standing out of the "crowd".

The whole idea is not only false, but as primitive as the paleanthological age man, that believed that by wearing a bear's skin he will not only be protected from the cold, but he will aslo own some of the bear's qualities at the animal kingdom. BTW this primitive idea is the cornerstone of modern advertizing. You are not sold a trip, a car, a home, but the idea of happiness, etc.

But a bad image maker photographer will remain as such no matter what camera he uses. A weak character will remain weak, no matter how money wealthy he is.

All these don't speak at all about the good intrinsic qualities of Leica gear. Unfortunately this interesting discussion is very often too much cluttered by the mythos built in around.

Leica cameras and lenses have well served much of the best photographers, that's true. But it is no true for me. There is nothing attractive to me in fooling myself with the belief I will be as powerful as a bear if I buy the skin, be it the expensive original or a cheaper synthetic. It is of much more interest to me to be creative and charting my own way in all orders of life.

Cheers,
Ruben

PS
As a personal story, I would recall my first good camera was an OM1 given to me as a gift, around which I started to build my OM system. At those times of high ignorance for me, my menthor was a Jerusalem seller, whose veiled mantra was that either I go for Nikon AF or I am nothing. At the same time I was depending on him for info, I had to struggle within myself against his concept for several years. I still remember his face expression the time I told him I bought a new OM4ti, not from his shop but from Olympus USA...
Later on, unrelated to this story, he went to sell motorcycles.

PS 2,
Upon thinking about all these, we can get a good angle about our Bartender unique character, in his bussiness occupation.

 

[NickTrop]

Hi Ruben,

I would counter by saying it seems to me you're reading a bit much into a common expression. But, as always, a thoughtful, well-written, and provocative post.

Cheers,

Nick

 

[reagan]

The consummerist concept is that by owning the ultimative camera you either are a better photographer, or someone standing out of the "crowd".

While true, I'm not so sure this statement really applies in the context of this thread. The Leicas we Po.Men are attempting to [cheaply] emulate here were maybe some folks idea of "ultimate cameras" 50, 60 and 70 years ago. Not really the type of high-end gear that one would lust after to augment his social or creative status in this age. I think this thread is more about a bunch of guys just piddling with old cameras that they’ve, just for fun, nick-named Poor.Man’s.Leica. And hey, a hundred and twenty bucks worth of FSU and Summar isn't exactly diving mindlessly into the deep end of egotistical consumerism, now is it?

But that's just my dos pesos. Now I'm off to work on the bear skin half-case for my lowly leedle Zorki… so he’ll think he's an M8.) 😉

 

[TheHub]

I read/heard that the Canon P is a good substitue for a Leica.