The "Sin" Of Being A RFF Amateur

[Jocko]

Roger wrote “'Lifetime learning' is for many a cruel hoax. Those who do not learn for the pleasure of learning are forced to acquire bits of paper in order to jump through corporatist hoops, and those who do learn for the pleasure of learning are often faced with overly rigid curricula which removes the pleasure. How many people do you know who can't get a particular job because they haven't got the necessary piece of paper?”

As a former university teacher I agree with every word of the above. Most people can acquire a modicum of technical ability - can pass exams - but the creative use of such skills is unteachable. I am reminded of Bill Tidy’s comment on the “Henry Witherington School of Cartooning” - “It was marvelous - it taught you to draw just like Henry Witherington”.

I also understood what Ruben wrote - especially this: “Because there is a big, a tremendous, difference between a situation in which a group of "artists" meet to entangle in a pseudo-intelectual talk, and other situation in which any of our members spend an hour of his time trying to explain to other folk a technical or artistic question”.

Now, that is not “mean spirited anti-intellectual drivel”. It is the very opposite . A genuine intellectual seeks truth, knowledge and insight - “understanding” sums it up. The bogus article seeks only to be regarded as such a person. There is all the difference in the world between the pose and the reality: Everyone familiar with academic life knows that much of what passes for discourse is the exact counterpart of monkeys pulling fleas from each other. Its function is not to enhance understanding but to reinforce membership of (and status within) the group.

I think we see that process going on at the moment. The RFF I joined has vanished. As Frank said, the old experts are gone, apparently replaced by a diminishing spiral of repetitive, self-advertising monologues and mutual reinforcement. Far from having grown too large, I think the genuinely active membership is actually smaller, because the atmosphere is less open and less welcoming. Like Max, I think its time to go.

Cheers, everyone

Ian

 

[navilluspm]

But I never feel my opinions have any more weight than anyone else's.

Oh No. Why did I trade in my Sonnar for Canon!

(This is just a little internal joke. BTW - The Canon 85mm 1.8 is a really nice lens.)

 

[Sonnar Brian]

> Roger you cannot actually believe that anyone who has advanced degrees would have "blind faith" in formal training do you?

I've had some work for me. I supervised a PhD Physicist that had a 4.0 average for his MS and PhD from MIT . He could not apply his knowledge. He did not pass a probationary review. A mix of common sense and a little humility would have helped.

 

[ruben]

This is the best thread for many months.

I have no idea what's about! But I like it.

Hi Jon,

I assume you was just jocking when saying you have no idea what this thread is about.

Curiously for the last hours I have been thinking about the intense human warmth driving you towards your images, as perhaps one of the best example what it is all about.

So far as I am concerned, and in this case I hapenned to open this thread, I am not discussing the virtues of learning at a University, nor being a pro, nor being or not men of achievement.

I am discussing weather achievement is of any value if it serves only to punch one's chest over the Empire State Building like King Kong, instead of using it to help your fellow folks to advance.

This question is very much at the heart of Photography and Life itself, and how any of us regards it. You approach photography as you approach life.

It is whithin this framework, that at this stage of the discussion, I can perceive the intense value of our RFF amateur photography. It is done with the best candour, innocency, naivite, respect for the medium and much of the best human qualities.

Are we great photographers ? it depends from which angle you see it. But as amateurs, lovers of photographers disconnected from the rotten heights of power and big money, we are a bunch of good people. We help each other. This is what we have to respect most in ourselves.

Am I bothered as how good am I as a phtographer ? For sure ! But I feel at heaven when from time to time this forum reminds me that the most important is to be a good person.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[jan normandale]

What an entertaining eight pages!! .....much better than all this 'what's your favourite f stop'...or 'show us your box brownie' nonsense!!!

Yeah Dave, it's a good one. Interestingly we both use our full names here too.

 

[Roger Hicks]

I am discussing weather achievement is of any value if it serves only to punch one's chest over the Empire State Building like King Kong, instead of using it to help your fellow folks to advance.

This question is very much at the heart of Photography and Life itself, and how any of us regards it. You approach photography as you approach life.

It is whithin this framework, that at this stage of the discussion, I can perceive the intense value of our RFF amateur photography. It is done with the best candour, innocency, naivite, respect for the medium and much of the best human qualities.

Are we great photographers ? it depends from which angle you see it. But as amateurs, lovers of photographers disconnected from the rotten heights of power and big money, we are a bunch of good people. We help each other. This is what we have to respect most in ourselves.

Am I bothered as how good am I as a phtographer ? For sure ! But I feel at heaven when from time to time this forum reminds me that the most important is to be a good person.

Cheers,
Ruben

Dear Ruben,

I hope you will not feel insulted when I say that I find the above much clearer and easier to understand than your original post. I agree completely with every word quoted above.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Quercus]

I teach and have taught both at the bottom social scale and the upper social scale - i currently teach at a very successful international school. Students from here get into Yale, stanford etc in the US by Grade point average (mainly) for those of us who are used to a British route into University this always appears absurd. Students get a University Place before they complete a single terminal examination - they get in based on teacher assessment that does not have to gauged against any national educational standard. The students going to Europe or the UK have a harder time they have to attain certain levels within public examinations before being offered places but the one thing that is certain coming from a privilege International school the do get into Oxford, Cambridge etc a lot easier than students that I used to teach in Birmingham in a very strong state sector school with roughly the same grades.

Privilege is what it is - Private legislation - rules that apply to some but not others.

By the other token I totally agree with Dave that skills are disappearing - The artisan in any profession is now so under-rated - That is why certainly in Britain Media studies courses are full whilst engineering is empty. Soon we will have Jarrow marches for the number of un-employed (or is that un-employable) media gradutes

BTW I started life as a lumber jack (an apprenticeship route) - so have seen both sides of the fence - and yes I now have a plethora of higher degrees - but first and foremost I am time served forester.

In photography like any other profession both routes work education or time serving - but in either they only work for some and never for all

 

[M. Valdemar]

The danger in the modern American educational system is that in the interest of "fairness", or quotas, or egalitarianism, EVERYONE is given a free pass and allowed to graduate.

There is a small core of highly intelligent, even brilliant students, but they are graduated with the same credentials as hordes of marginal or even dumb students in witless "diploma mills". Hardly anyone is ever told that they don't make the grade.

Interestingly enough, companies like Google have developed their own systems for finding, nurturing and hiring the "best of the brightest".

It's fascinating to read of the methods that these new mega high tech companies find and train the genius percentiles for their organizations, but that's a thread by itself.

 

[jan normandale]

That's what I've observed, any college degree is more about effort than creativity or thinking ability. Some of the more clueless (in some ways) people I know have PhDs. Like taking photographs, if you can figure out how to get your clothes on in the morning, you can get a PhD in any field with enough effort. Heck, your clothes don't even need to match.

When I attended university (not named) one of my profs said "you will be hired not for your knowledge but for the workload we impose on our students. Those that graduate demonstrate they can handle a heavy load" He noted that no one will even ask your grade average after your first job. Disappointingly he was right on both counts.

He knew employers would be looking for a student who could "take it" or to paraphrase Kevin Bacon in his Animal House frat induction (with a paddle on his butt) “Thank you, sir! May I have another!”

Group psych is an interesting thing.. even here.

 

[M. Valdemar]

I'm good at upsetting people on internet forums.

 

[mike goldberg]

Ruben has done it again... he opened a thought provoking post, with over 220 replies.

Am I bothered as how good am I as a phtoographer ? For sure! But I feel at heaven when from time to time, this forum reminds me that the most important is to be a good person.

I think we are an exceptional bunch here. My buddies put up with my "shtuyot" or idiosyncrasies. Tho' enlightenment in RFF is sometimes abrupt; it is more like gently inviting one to grow.

 

[Pherdinand]

say nothing, think nothing, and you'll never be wrong.

Similarly, there was a "blunderbokaal" competition ant my previous group where i worked for some years in a lab. It translates to some kind of "Stupidity Cup". It is a migrating cup -prize that goes every year to the group member who makes the biggest mess / the dumbest mistake at work or related. Has a long lsit of names on it.
We had a technician who, while i was there, won it the third time. He's in the group for 25+years, so had enough chance to get it. However, we all were making fun of him.
Then he said, well guys if you never work you will indeed never win it.

 

[ruben]

Dear Ruben,

I hope you will not feel insulted when I say that I find the above much clearer and easier to understand than your original post. I agree completely with every word quoted above.

Cheers,

R.

Not at all Roger, and following your Hegelian track, the dialectics of discussion are such that the issues become clearer as the discusssion deepens.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[Pherdinand]

there are levels between knowing the answer for sure, and waffling when having no faint idea.

 

[ruben]

I'm good at upsetting people on internet forums.

Perhaps Valdemar. But you also seem to be a very much alive human being, and can contribute in a positive way to RFF. Just do it. Input from your knowledge and experience. Share whatever you can. Feel at home and build this home. You may gain a lot of respect this way. I do believe you do have the potential.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[Quercus]

My biggest worry in any of the photography forums is the guru complex (es). The very small number who desperately seem to be chasing after a "guru" their enlighten one who will hence and enlighten them and the again very few, and not necessarily on this forum, that want to project a guru like stance for their own utterances.

I tend to learn something everyday on here, well at least every few days but none of it will ever change my life and very little actually enhances my picture taking. And as long as I leave feeling happy with the kit I use and the photographs I take we little much else matters

 

[crawdiddy]

This is as succinct as I can make it:

I enjoy this forum a lot. Keep the opinion coming. Hold the attitude, please.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

It's what you do with knowledge that is important. Do you do something useful with it, or do you simply hold it over other people's heads. There's too many people on this and other internet forums that simply use their knowledge to put down anyone else that posts a question or a picture and asks for help.

It's fairly easy to identify the forum bullies. Avoiding them, ignoring them, putting up with them, is the hard part.

 

[Quercus]

I agree Brian, it is when people genuinely help others in a forum for no other reason than to help, that is when I actually find new things out.

 

[Pherdinand]

So we should all put "IMHO" at the start of every post.

You are at the extreme, again.
"we all", "every post"
No. And i guess you know very well what i am talking about.
But if not, here it is, concluded in a short and understandable way, how I think it WOULD be normal:
A.When you know an answer for sure, you just answer the question rised with the necessary background info if that is needed.
B.When you have an idea about the answer, it is more adequate to express it as your idea about it, your humble or not so humble oppinion, in order not to mislead the person who asked (and the others who read).
C.When you have no faint idea about the answer, you can shut up and wait for someone who knows, or you can fantasize, or you can make a joke that fits.

I can give you a simple example.
J. Claremont asked some hours ago where he can find a small screw for his Bessa, and he did it in a funny way.
There were some answers on how he could get hold of one.
There were some answers saying "i don't know how to get an original one but this or that might fit, here's how i solved a similar problem".
There were answers (like mine) who just picked up the the funny line he started, obviously because we liked the idea, but we had no useful advice.
Nobody's hurt, nobody's mislead, everybody got what he wanted (except he still has no small screw).
Life is not black and white. There are many beautiful gray tones between, as you know it very well, and (god forgive me) there are even colours.

Or at least this is how a question/problem is addressed in science, this is how it works in my world, and in my limited life experience.