Thoughts/observations about Zone System...

[Carterofmars]

I just wanted to discuss the Zone System.

• How often do you use?
• Do you use a spot meter?
• Are you metering shadows mostly and decreasing 2 stops?
• Do you just try to meter what you think is med gray?
• I read that in color blue and green best represent what can be considered med gray. Is this correct?

Thanks in Advance.

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

I use it in a modified sort of way. If I am shooting with my Hasselblad (no built in meter) I use a handheld spot meter and meter for the shadow tones I want detail in then check the highlights to be sure they don't fall too high. If they do, I use N-1 developing for the roll. You only get 12 pics on a roll with the Hassy so I shoot the whole roll usually.

I do the same if I am shooting with my Olympus OM gear as I use the OM-4T bodies with their very accurate spotmeter. I have 3 bodies so I can keep normal and N-1 films loaded and use as needed.

For my Leica, an M6, the meter isn't selective enough to do the full-on zone system. I just meter for the most convenient tone to meter. Often a midtone. My exposures are usually good but not as consistantly perfect as I get with the OM-4T or from using a handheld meter.

 

[Roger Hicks]

The Zone System is a popularization of basic sensitometry dating back to 1890 (Hurter & Driffied) as heavily modified by Kodalk researchers Jones & Condit in the early 1940s. In my view, it is simultaneously an oversimplification (too much rote) and an overcomplication (too much jargon).

Trying to guess an 18% grey is a waste of time, and won't give you guaranteed shadow detail anyway.

For black and white, meter the shadows and use the shadow index of a spot meter. If there's no shadow index (eg I.R.E. 1) then go down 2, 2-1/3 (E.R.E. 1), 2-1/2, 2-2/3 or even 3 stops. As you are going to choose yoir own exposure index based on simple iterative testing, it doesn't really matter which you choose.

Few colours are pure enough to make much difference to the response of the cell, though instruction books for the Pentax Spotmeter V gives correction factors for different pure colours: approximately 2/3 MORE for red, 1-1/3 stops for orange, 2 stops for deep yellow, 2/3 stop for blue, then 1/2 to 1/3 stop LESS for indigo and violet.

There's a lot more about metering for negatives (including iterative testing) in http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/ps expo neg.html and some observations on the Zone System in http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/ps zone.html

 

[rpsawin]

JSU...I just noticed you have a post count of 4,294,967,295!!! Take today off and give it a rest.

Bob

 

[Finder]

The Zone System was formulated by Ansel Adams and Fred Archer at the end of the 30s. It is simply applied sensitometry. The use of the Zone System requires control over exposure and development. However, using part of the Zone System is not using the Zone System.

When the Zone System was developed, graded papers were the only choice. The Zone System gave photographers a method of making a negative match a target grade. With multi-grade papers and digital workflows, the Zone System is not really a vital method.

There is certainly a lot of confusion about the Zone System. The idea of exposing for a mid-tone (18% grey) will somehow give shadow or highlight detail would be wrong. Scene contrast must be considered. This is why the Zone System uses both exposure and development.

I don't use the Zone System, but I understand the photographic process and use that in determining my exposures and development. Sensitometry can be applied to both color and black and white.

 

[AgentX]

Never used it scientifically, but have used it in principle since I was a freshman in college... meter darkest tones in image in which you want detail, drop exposure appropriately (normally 2 stops...) and meter highlights. Base development time on difference in stops between darkest and lightest to place highlights on the zone scale where you want them.

Did some experimenting with dev times and techniques to get consistent N(+/-) times dialed in, but never really got too into testing for the sake of it and working with many of the minor variables plus a variety of materials and chemistry, which I assume you really need to do to get into the fine control of it all.

When I shot color, I usually used a highlight based exposure (meter + 2 on the highlights) with trans and and an average of the highlights/shadows with neg. (appropriately adjusted for effect desired, naturally...)

 

[fotomeow]

I think having an understanding of the zone system is invaluable for B&W shooting. However, I realized that I quickly dropped the zone system critical thinking part when I started shooting digital, eg RD-1s. I forgot how I used to use my brain more when shooting film and thinking about using the zone system.
Now that I am shooting mostly digital RD-1s, I've turned off the post-shot LCD display so I'll focus more on using Zone theories in the first shot and shoot less pics of the same subject.
I mean, when you shoot film, you take the shot and dont get immediate results like with digital. So by turning off the post-view LCD, I have to trust myself more, and this gets my Zone brain working again. Just my experience, cheers.

 

[Chris101]

I read all about the Zone System in Adam's books, and in a few more modern books as well. I found Adam's explanation of the relationship between exposure, development and the density curve of the negative (in his book The Negative) to be invaluable in my understanding of film handling.

However, I shoot 35mm film in cameras that have an averaging meter if that (my Leica, for example is un-metered) so using the Zone System is not practical. My shooting style is to meter a scene, and then shoot multiple shots, from different angles and distances. Occasionally I will decide to push or pull a roll of film to accommodate the contrast I wish to have in many of the pictures on that roll.

So no, I do not use the Zone System, but I have general knowledge of it, which informs my exposure habits.

 

[ChrisN]

I've posted this before, but it fits here too:

With the discussion of the Zone System above, I hope people won't mind if I drop in here a quote from a discussion over on the Large Format forum. It's the best explanation I've seen.

Aim the one degree spot at the darkest area in the scene where you still want to see some detail. Close down two stops.

You have just placed the shadow area in Zone III.

That's usually the proper exposure for the scene.

Now, aim the spot at the brightest area in the scene.

If it's a five stop range between the darkest and brightest reading, use normal development.

Less than five, increase development.

More than five, decrease development.

No need to take a whole series of meter readings and average them. That's defeating the purpose.

Just make certain that you have given enough exposure to get some detail in the shadows. Then, develop for the highlights.

That's the Zone System in a nut shell.

The whole thread (here) makes good reading.

My own application of the zone system principles is limited to metering the shadows - "The darkest tone with texture and detail" to borrow Roger's phrase, and placing this tone in zone 3 by reducing the metered exposure by two stops. For this I use a Pentax digital spot meter equipped with a Lambrecht scale (see http://www.largeformatphotography.info/articles/ZoneDial.pdf). I'm also a big fan of Mike Johnston's "Not much of a system system".

 

[flip]

I think having an understanding of the zone system is invaluable for B&W shooting. However, I realized that I quickly dropped the zone system critical thinking part when I started shooting digital, eg RD-1s. I forgot how I used to use my brain more when shooting film and thinking about using the zone system.
Now that I am shooting mostly digital RD-1s, I've turned off the post-shot LCD display so I'll focus more on using Zone theories in the first shot and shoot less pics of the same subject.
I mean, when you shoot film, you take the shot and dont get immediate results like with digital. So by turning off the post-view LCD, I have to trust myself more, and this gets my Zone brain working again. Just my experience, cheers.

I came to believe from my experience with the R-D1 that the zone system was of little practical use in digital photography. The highlights, once blown, are not retrievable, so it made more sense to rely on the histogram and internal meter. I am curious how you dealt with these issues.

Personally, I am aware of the system, have read about it, keep it in mind, but more typically (VCII) meter off my hand -- angled to achieve the shadow left I'm trying to meter in the scene. I adjust for tricky situations as they arise.

So, no, not so much zone -- mostly for reasons of convenience and expediency.

 

[Carterofmars]

That's pretty much what I've been reading about zone. Meter the darkest part you need detail then stop down 2 as a rule. In my thinking of it, I was worried that by making the shadow darker by 2 I would be loosing detail; the area would be black. But actually it would turn black if I stopped down a total of 4 stops, putting that area at zone 1. Respectively, if I stop the exposure down 2 stops for the shadow, the lighter areas will stop down as well wouldn't it?

I've posted this before, but it fits here too:

With the discussion of the Zone System above, I hope people won't mind if I drop in here a quote from a discussion over on the Large Format forum. It's the best explanation I've seen.



The whole thread (here) makes good reading.

My own application of the zone system principles is limited to metering the shadows - "The darkest tone with texture and detail" to borrow Roger's phrase, and placing this tone in zone 3 by reducing the metered exposure by two stops. For this I use a Pentax digital spot meter equipped with a Lambrecht scale (see http://www.largeformatphotography.info/articles/ZoneDial.pdf). I'm also a big fan of Mike Johnston's "Not much of a system system".

 

[sevo]

"Measure for the shadows" and the corresponding "meter for the highlights" are not zone system. But for everything except black and white sheet film I do consider them superior to any full zone system application. The latter requires matching between scenery contrast and film gamma, and will only work if the latter is variable - which it is not if you shoot colour or have multiple takes on one roll which would need different development adjustments.

 

[Carterofmars]

Didn't Adam's say with regard to shooting negatives: meter the shadows then develop the highlights?

"Measure for the shadows" and the corresponding "meter for the highlights" are not zone system. But for everything except black and white sheet film I do consider them superior to any full zone system application. The latter requires matching between scenery contrast and film gamma, and will only work if the latter is variable - which it is not if you shoot colour or have multiple takes on one roll which would need different development adjustments.

 

[Carterofmars]

I've posted this before, but it fits here too:

With the discussion of the Zone System above, I hope people won't mind if I drop in here a quote from a discussion over on the Large Format forum. It's the best explanation I've seen.



The whole thread (here) makes good reading.

My own application of the zone system principles is limited to metering the shadows - "The darkest tone with texture and detail" to borrow Roger's phrase, and placing this tone in zone 3 by reducing the metered exposure by two stops. For this I use a Pentax digital spot meter equipped with a Lambrecht scale (see http://www.largeformatphotography.info/articles/ZoneDial.pdf). I'm also a big fan of Mike Johnston's "Not much of a system system".

Originally Posted by Gem Singer
Aim the one degree spot at the darkest area in the scene where you still want to see some detail. Close down two stops.

You have just placed the shadow area in Zone III.

That's usually the proper exposure for the scene.

Now, aim the spot at the brightest area in the scene.

If it's a five stop range between the darkest and brightest reading, use normal development.

Less than five, increase development.

More than five, decrease development.

No need to take a whole series of meter readings and average them. That's defeating the purpose.

Just make certain that you have given enough exposure to get some detail in the shadows. Then, develop for the highlights.

That's the Zone System in a nut shell.


is there a benefit/drawback to increasing the speed by two increments rather than adjust the aperture? In case you needed to keep the aperture setting you've selected.

 

[Chris101]

... is there a benefit/drawback to increasing the speed by two increments rather than adjust the aperture? In case you needed to keep the aperture setting you've selected.

In this context, the phrase "close down" is generic - it means "give less exposure" by either method.

 

[rlouzan]

If you want to keep your friends, don't discuss religion,
politics and the zone system.

 

[Roger Hicks]

If you want to keep your friends, don't discuss religion,
politics and the zone system.

At the risk of making things worse, this is largely an American problem. I encounter far fewer problems with citizens of the rest of the world. My (American) wife agrees.

Cheers,

R.

 

[fotomeow]

Didn't Adam's say with regard to shooting negatives: meter the shadows then develop the highlights?

Not sure if it was Adams, but thats what they taught me for 3 B&W film classes years ago.

Flip,
re: zone on the RD-1s: yes, when the highlights are blown they are mostly irretrievable. I think in LR/PS you can pull them in a bit, but just turns them an ugly grey. Same for zone 0.
All I really meant was that you can meter for the shadows: And if you stop down 2 stops it put the shadows in Zone 3; stop down X1 and put shadows in zone 4; no stop down, put them in zone 5. And vice-versa for metering for the highligts to put them in zone 7, or zone 6, or zone 5. The point being that I can use the zone system to measure the # of stops b/w the higher zones and lower zones and, by metering, place the details where I want them in the image. Its not "true" zone system work b/c its not film and Im not developing the film to compensate for my metering in the original shot. Its just more theoretical use of the zone system with digital.

 

[charjohncarter]

If you want to really get confused or maybe get the 'zone system' clarified watch this. It isn't as bad as it seems. And actually makes sense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlnt5yFArWo

 

[Ade-oh]

Bah humbug!

In reality, use of the Zone System is neither necessary nor sufficient to produce good photographs; nor is it actually practical in a great many applications. I've tried it and felt it wasn't worth the effort in any realistic way.