N
Nikon Bob
Guest
I know, I was being sarcastic. Then again why should that make a difference? Just variable service to go along with variable QC?
Bob
Thoughts on digital Ms....
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I know, I was being sarcastic. Then again why should that make a difference? Just variable service to go along with variable QC?
Bob
Mrbessar4a
Member
They probably have a lot but they're all being put into NEW M9s which they can't sell fast enough. Guys who already spend their $7gs are always second in line.
Mrbessar4a
Member
What people fail to understand is that I LOVE Leica's products. Their style and designs mesh exactly with what I want. If I could do 80% of my shooting with the M9 exactly like it is now, even with its host of problems, I would...
...BUT I WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO AFFORD AN M. Let alone lenses. I'm a person who has dedicated my whole adult life to photography. I have a BA in Photography and Cinema, I've worked for photographers as an assistant and a darkroom printer and now I'm branching out on my own. I also work in a camera store to support my growing wedding business. I spend A LOT of money on photo...still the M9 is priced so out of reach that it would take me a year to bring in half the cash to pay the rest on credit, and I wouldn't even have a lens!
So even though I'm exactly the kind of person who knows why a Leica is a wonderful thing, I am denied it because they position themselves in the Luxury market, like sports cars and couture.
So yeah, when I hear about M9s having problems it just tugs at that itch a little bit. The only thing I would ever bash about Leica is how they run their business. I think they could make it just a little easier for the little guy, and I think that would be a good thing.
Jeff S
Well-known
Yes, M9s are expensive, even cost prohibitive, for many. But, the 'little guy,' using your term, still can enjoy the digital M experience. The M8 (base model or upgraded) or the M8.2 can offer a much more moderately priced solution, with still very close results. Without printing huge, and using good technique, the results can be indistinguishable to most viewers. (I would also argue that the M8.2 is more reliable than the M9 since it is a 'second generation' camera, having sorted out the early M8 issues, and it doesn't suffer from additional M9 issues associated with full frame challenges and bigger files.)
And, as far as service, even the little guy can help himself by following good protocol. I never send my camera/lens in for service (Leica NJ) without first contacting (by phone and email) a representative in advance. This person helps to expedite the process and keeps me well informed of progress along the way. This is no different than when I send my car for service. You don't have to be rich to use some proactive and sensible practices to better ensure good results.
Jeff
MCTuomey
Veteran
What Jeff said. A little bonhomie and patience go a long way in the service queue.
"Digital rot" (rapid depreciation) is your friend. The current model of every camera maker carries a premium, similar in proportion to the M9. There are fine M8/8u/8.2 bodies out there at a fraction of their original price. So if an M9 is $$ out of reach, you can get very close with an M8. As to reliability, sure, it's a pain to wait on parts and service when things break. That's when back-ups get used. It's actually fun to get the Plan B gear out once in awhile, don't ya know.
"Digital rot" (rapid depreciation) is your friend. The current model of every camera maker carries a premium, similar in proportion to the M9. There are fine M8/8u/8.2 bodies out there at a fraction of their original price. So if an M9 is $$ out of reach, you can get very close with an M8. As to reliability, sure, it's a pain to wait on parts and service when things break. That's when back-ups get used. It's actually fun to get the Plan B gear out once in awhile, don't ya know.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
While the initial cost of a used M8/M8.2 seems great, there are almost no bodies that have Leica warranties left out there. So, if you need to get service done to the camera, you have to pay out of pocket. These days a rangefinder alignment on the M8 from Leica costs just over $600USD. It comes with some sort of CLA and a few other processes which sounded to me like changing the fluid in my headlights. So for ~1/4 of the cost of an excellent quality used M8, the buyer gets a "CLA." After that, there is only a 90 day Leica warranty on the service provided, not on anything else. No option to extend a full Leica factory warranty. Anyone who receives treatment like that is special in the eyes of Solms. But that's their right to treat their customers who have spent tens of thousands of dollars (or more) over decades on new equipment, differently. I'd want to keep my cash cows happily fed too so I understand, but the experience of those folks is not what normal Leica service is, be it in Germany or the USA.
Sure, a film M will need a bit of servicing every decade or so and a RF adjustment or CLA is always less than $200. And yes, it could be 1/4 the cost of the camera, but you also get a reliable camera that will need servicing only a few times in one's life, not go back a few times in 2 years for recurring issues.
Digital Leicas in-warranty are a pain due to the time it takes to get them serviced. Digital Leicas out-of-warranty are both a pain and expensive. It shouldn't be as if I can't lay down another $600-1000 USD that I'm just out of the Leica club. I've given Leica more than $10,000 on new gear and service so I deserve better treatment. But then again, anyone who chooses to use the brand does.
Phil Forrest
Sure, a film M will need a bit of servicing every decade or so and a RF adjustment or CLA is always less than $200. And yes, it could be 1/4 the cost of the camera, but you also get a reliable camera that will need servicing only a few times in one's life, not go back a few times in 2 years for recurring issues.
Digital Leicas in-warranty are a pain due to the time it takes to get them serviced. Digital Leicas out-of-warranty are both a pain and expensive. It shouldn't be as if I can't lay down another $600-1000 USD that I'm just out of the Leica club. I've given Leica more than $10,000 on new gear and service so I deserve better treatment. But then again, anyone who chooses to use the brand does.
Phil Forrest
Brian Puccio
Well-known
I remember when 8 MB of memory for a digital camera was fairly expensive. Now? A thousand times that for less money, even factoring in inflation. I cannot afford an M9 today and I cannot justify an M8 today, but in time I'm sure I'll have a digital rangefinder. Until then, Provia, Adox CMS and Neopan 1600.
MCTuomey
Veteran
Pure exaggeration, nothing else. The title of this thread is "Thoughts on digital Ms" which somehow calls for nominal respect for facts. What's the point of the discussion when such assertions are made? I'm done.
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Jeff S
Well-known
Not so for M8.2s...just takes some looking around. I have 2 of them, and neither camera has required much of anything. Plus, any reputable dealer will offer a warranty after purchase if there are initial problems.
Jeff
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
MCTuomey
Veteran
Scan and post it. If you paid $600 for a rangefinder adjustment and nothing else, I'll send you free film. You need the help.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
I'll find it and get it posted here within a few days. I may have to get it sent to me as I just moved to a new apartment and all my paperwork is in boxes.
I argued the fact that it was too expensive with Leica and almost had them put it back together and send it back to me out of adjustment. The itemized estimate over $600 had a few lines of service on it which I thought were garbage. "alignment of pixels" "bring camera to current standard" (firmware upgrade, which actually cost me money to have them do.)
I eventually talked them down a bit and was billed $507 with shipping from Allendale, NJ to Philadelphia, PA.
I sold the camera to a local shop upon receiving it and never looked back because I'm still pissed off at Leica. This was less than a year since I bought a brand new M9 from them.
And now my M9 is due to be sent out because of hot pixels and lines coming from them (This has been discussed on the forum ad nauseum so no need continuing the hot pixel issue here.) It's not even a pleasant camera to use anymore as there is a certain amount of post processing I must do with every image. So I carry my M4 with me and I'm happy.
Now once again, I say that the M9 and M8/M8.2 are the nicest miniature format digital cameras available. They produce the best files and they use some of the best lenses ever made. That is, when they work properly...
The service from Leica is on the opposite end of the spectrum from the quality of their cameras, in my experience.
Phil Forrest
I argued the fact that it was too expensive with Leica and almost had them put it back together and send it back to me out of adjustment. The itemized estimate over $600 had a few lines of service on it which I thought were garbage. "alignment of pixels" "bring camera to current standard" (firmware upgrade, which actually cost me money to have them do.)
I eventually talked them down a bit and was billed $507 with shipping from Allendale, NJ to Philadelphia, PA.
I sold the camera to a local shop upon receiving it and never looked back because I'm still pissed off at Leica. This was less than a year since I bought a brand new M9 from them.
And now my M9 is due to be sent out because of hot pixels and lines coming from them (This has been discussed on the forum ad nauseum so no need continuing the hot pixel issue here.) It's not even a pleasant camera to use anymore as there is a certain amount of post processing I must do with every image. So I carry my M4 with me and I'm happy.
Now once again, I say that the M9 and M8/M8.2 are the nicest miniature format digital cameras available. They produce the best files and they use some of the best lenses ever made. That is, when they work properly...
The service from Leica is on the opposite end of the spectrum from the quality of their cameras, in my experience.
Phil Forrest
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
And you get a year's guaranty on the whole camera, not ninety days on the repair as you claim...I've got a bunch of warranty certificates to prove it. Bringing the camera up to current standard has nothing to do with firmware, it means exchanging electronic components to the ones that are used currently. I fully agree with Mike.
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Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
Not in my case of the M8 repair. Remember, I'm just the average Leica user, not special.
Phil Forrest
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
I doubt it. You must be on the black list.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
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MCTuomey
Veteran
I can't let it go ...
Let's try a different view, allowing for some inferences from what you mention re the invoice from Leica, Phil. It appears Leica did all or part of the following:
1. Adjusted the RF
2. Checked other tolerances and cleaned/lubed/adjusted as needed
3. Brought the camera's electronics up to current standard, swapping out parts as needed
4. Upgraded firmware (minor item, but hey it's something you don't have to do)
5. Provided a full one year warranty from the date of repair
All for $500. I submit respectfully that you got a good deal and that Leica did right well by you.
Let's try a different view, allowing for some inferences from what you mention re the invoice from Leica, Phil. It appears Leica did all or part of the following:
1. Adjusted the RF
2. Checked other tolerances and cleaned/lubed/adjusted as needed
3. Brought the camera's electronics up to current standard, swapping out parts as needed
4. Upgraded firmware (minor item, but hey it's something you don't have to do)
5. Provided a full one year warranty from the date of repair
All for $500. I submit respectfully that you got a good deal and that Leica did right well by you.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
No parts were swapped out or replaced.
I asked only for a rangefinder adjustment as the camera was working perfectly otherwise. They cleaned switches and "aligned pixels" among a few other things then insisted that I pay that exorbitant price for the service. I also did NOT get a 1 yr warranty. I can get the shop owner and the Leica rep. to say the same thing.
Sure that may be a fantastic deal but the fact that the cameras have to go in so frequently negates that. If it DID in fact get a 1 year warranty based upon that particular camera's past and the past of my M9, 3 months of that year would have been spent at the factory.
Now, let's look at this from my point of view, a young-ish photographer just at the end of school, desperately wanting to use his Leica gear for work but needing a digital camera. Voila, a digital M comes out and that solves the problem. To some extent. The factory demo camera costs $2600 with the 1 yr warranty. About the same as a Nikon D700 but I already own the Leica lenses so the M8 is cheaper. It develops a hot pixel and obvious vertical line then I deal with it in post. After having the M8 for 10 months I'm able to afford an M9 with my GI Bill stipend saved up for months. I get the M9 and on the third day of ownership, find a hot pixel and a vertical line. So the M8 goes out for repair as the warranty is almost up. Comes back 3 months later with ZERO warranty extension. The M9 goes out and comes back 13 weeks later. Within several months the M8 RF is out of cal and it needs to be repaired. Goes out and spends over 2 months at Leica. I asked about the warranty extension and was told it was limited factory 90 days on the service performed. Sold it as soon as it returned from Leica.
In spite of the service being a good deal or not, it's incredibly expensive unless Leica cameras are not meant to be used by working photographers. If so, they should tell us that and then only their more well-off sycophants and the uber-rich will have to pay but pay they will. This is an untenable position for those where I am and it's not good business on the part of Leica, taking a much younger generation of photographers who want to use their splendid equipment, and letting us down with high failure rates and slow service with not the best communication.
This is maybe the third time I've gotten involved with these reliability discussions here. I have one friend who has owned two M8s and one M9, all had to have faults in shutters or sensors repaired. He sold them, has an M6 and shoots Canon digitals now.
I have three other friends who have owned an M8 each and one has owned an M9. All of those cameras have had to go back to Leica for warranty service. One M8 has been there since June. This is a small sampling but it is a 100% failure rate for the folks here in Philadelphia I know who have digital M bodies. Nine failed cameras between us all and we still are dumb enough to think that they will work just fine this time. Almost superstitiously. I know two other folks out of the area with M9 bodies. One had to be repaired for a shutter fault and the other lives within 10 minutes of Leica NJ so he deals with them personally. I've not heard anything about his camera or service but I bet if I lived that close to the NJ center, I'd be walking in several times a week to see about my repair.
I'll argue this point time and again but if we pay premium prices for such equipment, we should get premium service. As for me, Leica won't earn any more money from me unless they make a serious change. Until then I will buy used gear and won't pay a nickel for repair.
My slightly worn black paint M9 will be for sale before October of next year. Probably immediately after it comes back from its next repair.
Phil Forrest
I asked only for a rangefinder adjustment as the camera was working perfectly otherwise. They cleaned switches and "aligned pixels" among a few other things then insisted that I pay that exorbitant price for the service. I also did NOT get a 1 yr warranty. I can get the shop owner and the Leica rep. to say the same thing.
Sure that may be a fantastic deal but the fact that the cameras have to go in so frequently negates that. If it DID in fact get a 1 year warranty based upon that particular camera's past and the past of my M9, 3 months of that year would have been spent at the factory.
Now, let's look at this from my point of view, a young-ish photographer just at the end of school, desperately wanting to use his Leica gear for work but needing a digital camera. Voila, a digital M comes out and that solves the problem. To some extent. The factory demo camera costs $2600 with the 1 yr warranty. About the same as a Nikon D700 but I already own the Leica lenses so the M8 is cheaper. It develops a hot pixel and obvious vertical line then I deal with it in post. After having the M8 for 10 months I'm able to afford an M9 with my GI Bill stipend saved up for months. I get the M9 and on the third day of ownership, find a hot pixel and a vertical line. So the M8 goes out for repair as the warranty is almost up. Comes back 3 months later with ZERO warranty extension. The M9 goes out and comes back 13 weeks later. Within several months the M8 RF is out of cal and it needs to be repaired. Goes out and spends over 2 months at Leica. I asked about the warranty extension and was told it was limited factory 90 days on the service performed. Sold it as soon as it returned from Leica.
In spite of the service being a good deal or not, it's incredibly expensive unless Leica cameras are not meant to be used by working photographers. If so, they should tell us that and then only their more well-off sycophants and the uber-rich will have to pay but pay they will. This is an untenable position for those where I am and it's not good business on the part of Leica, taking a much younger generation of photographers who want to use their splendid equipment, and letting us down with high failure rates and slow service with not the best communication.
This is maybe the third time I've gotten involved with these reliability discussions here. I have one friend who has owned two M8s and one M9, all had to have faults in shutters or sensors repaired. He sold them, has an M6 and shoots Canon digitals now.
I have three other friends who have owned an M8 each and one has owned an M9. All of those cameras have had to go back to Leica for warranty service. One M8 has been there since June. This is a small sampling but it is a 100% failure rate for the folks here in Philadelphia I know who have digital M bodies. Nine failed cameras between us all and we still are dumb enough to think that they will work just fine this time. Almost superstitiously. I know two other folks out of the area with M9 bodies. One had to be repaired for a shutter fault and the other lives within 10 minutes of Leica NJ so he deals with them personally. I've not heard anything about his camera or service but I bet if I lived that close to the NJ center, I'd be walking in several times a week to see about my repair.
I'll argue this point time and again but if we pay premium prices for such equipment, we should get premium service. As for me, Leica won't earn any more money from me unless they make a serious change. Until then I will buy used gear and won't pay a nickel for repair.
My slightly worn black paint M9 will be for sale before October of next year. Probably immediately after it comes back from its next repair.
Phil Forrest
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Yes they did swap out parts, that is what the term bring up to current standards means. The most important being the T2 upgrade, which replaces a suspect transistor, but several other tweaks as well. Leica does that as a routine to all cameras that come in. By aligned pixels they meant sensor mapping which means repairing dead pixels and red lines ( caused by cosmic radiation) which you probably did not even notice. It is amazing that the majority of broken Leicas comes from Philadephia...If it really were true statistically that all M9 s fail Leica would have to repair over 30.000 cameras. It would mean increasing CS staff by at least a hundredfold. Somehow you must have misunderstood the guaranty part. The one year guaranty has been standard for decades and still is.
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kbg32
neo-romanticist
I believe in terms of repair, Solms is a lot different then NJ. You need a part, walk down the hall or grab one from the parts bin. It is unfortunate that NJ does not have replacement sensors on hand. Replacements have to come from Germany. Silly, since they're sent from Rochester, NY.
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