Thoughts on digital Ms....

[Phil_F_NM]

Leica does that as a routine to all cameras that come in. By aligned pixels they meant sensor mapping which means repairing dead pixels and red lines ( caused by cosmic radiation) which you probably did not even notice. It is amazing that the majority of broken Leicas comes from Philadephia...If it really were true statistically that all M9 s fail Leica would have to repair over 30.000 cameras.

You misunderstood what I wrote. I said that 100% of the digital Leicas which I have come into contact with (those that I own or my friends have owned) have had to go back to the factory. 9 out of 9 cameras which I have seen in person.

If the parts were in fact swapped out, why did they charge me for it when it was a known fault of manufacture?

The sensor mapping in the M8 I knew about. It was a fault they fixed in the first round of repair and I should not have been charged for it. We've gone over the cosmic radiation excuse as well as this whole ring around the rosie before.

These two points alone should be inexcusable. Charging a customer who pays a premium price for a premium product that has known faults is just bad. Regardless, some people will be die hards to the very end, paying no matter what it costs to get their camera fixed and not caring about how long it takes. For those of us who have less money and want to use our digital cameras towards a living, we are forced to use more reliable cameras from a company with better service policies.

Phil Forrest

 

[MCTuomey]

Phil, re hot pixels - every Canon dSLR I've owned and used (1D, 1D II, 1D IIn, 1D III, 1Ds, 1Ds II, 5D, 5D II) developed hot pixels. I cite this fact to point out that certain problems are endemic to digital capture. Digital cameras are generally more expensive to maintain than their film equivalents, no doubt about it. It's part of the deal, that's all.

Expensive goods of any kind are expensive to repair. If a buyer can't afford the full ticket (purchase price and maintenance costs), don't buy it. As you say, the market will force us in a direction consistent with our ability to pay, whether that's Leica or what-have-you.

There's a lot to be said for shooting Canikon for digital work and shooting M bodies for film work. Sounds like that would work best for you. Not much drama or whining to be had, it's just a simple decision. Good luck and good shooting.

 

[jaapv]

They charge for the parts used because the old parts were not defective.just about all technical devices are developed during a production run. Most manufacturers leave older gear as is. Leica has a policy of returning a camera in as near a "new" state as possible.
Hot pixels are not a manufacturing defect. They are the result of cosmic radiation strikes on the sensor. This is well documented and as been discussed in this and other forums.
I suspect Mike does a lot of air travel as his experience with hot pixels is above average. Some very recent cameras ( notably the Olympus XZ1) have pixel mapping built into the firmware.
To avoid misunderstanding: these services are free as long as the camera is under guaranty And in my experience are even extended under courtesy frm time to time when there are special circumstances.
If you wanted a rangefinder adjust only why did you not send the camera to a third party repair service? The cost would have been 100$ or less. I do so whenI want to avoid the whole camera gone over and put to rights.

 

[robert blu]

Unreliability and slow time to service cameras by Solms is the main reason for which I'm not buying an m9. I'm not a professional and I shoot for my pleasure. But if I plan a journey and a few weeks before something happens to the camera and there is no possibility to have it repaired in a short time (let say a couple of weeks) it would be very frustrating.
robert
PS on the other side I'm tired to spend too much time in front of a computer to d-edust by PS my negatives when scanning...what to do? I don'y know !

 

[rogerzilla]

Hot pixels are not a manufacturing defect. They are the result of cosmic radiation strikes on the sensor.

Do you have a reliable reference for this? I'm not assuming you're wrong, but as a graduate engineer and IT person I'm genuinely interested. I didn't think gamma rays had enough energy to permanently damage a CCD.

 

[jaapv]

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=4379737

http://www.jai.com/SiteCollectionDo...ion_Tech_Note/TechNote-TH-1087-CosmicRays.pdf

And many others

 

[Phil_F_NM]

And Leica CCD's tend to develop nasty vertical lines of corresponding color which run through the hot pixel. Very difficult to correct in post.
The hot pixels are not solely caused by cosmic radiation, there are other manufacturing issues at play or else Leica would not replace or remap the sensors at no charge while under warranty.

Phil Forrest

 

[jaapv]

And Leica CCD's tend to develop nasty vertical lines of corresponding color which run through the hot pixel. Very difficult to correct in post.
The hot pixels are not solely caused by cosmic radiation, there are other manufacturing issues at play or else Leica would not replace or remap the sensors at no charge while under warranty.

Phil Forrest

Read the scientific articles - it has nothing to do with manufacturing issues. It is the first time I heard a complaint about Leica doing courtesy repairs. They would be well within their rights to charge for sensor mapping. Other brands do



http://euler.ecs.umass.edu/research...eld for a significant period of time.[/QUOTE]

 

[jaapv]

And you get a year's guaranty on the whole camera, not ninety days on the repair as you claim...I've got a bunch of warranty certificates to prove it. Bringing the camera up to current standard has nothing to do with firmware, it means exchanging electronic components to the ones that are used currently. I fully agree with Mike.

Just to prove it- An M6 I bought new that had been sitting in a dealer's cupboard for many years - so I sent it in for a relube. No repair. This came with it:

 

[Ben Z]

Some very recent cameras ( notably the Olympus XZ1) have pixel mapping built into the firmware.

I think it would be great if Leica put that into a firmware update. There's no reason they couldn't. When Epson did the RD1-S they released the firmware as an update for everyone with an original RD1. Remapping was a simple menu function.

 

[GBR66]

I bought an M8 secondhand about 3 years ago, it worked reliably with a mixture of Leica and CV lenses and I think it both produced the best images and provided more satisfaction than any other camera I've had....until it got soaked....when my insurance company came up with an M9 as a replacement, and that has been utterly reliable, fantastic image quality and the same satisfaction in use....sorry for all those who have had bad Leica experiences but I wonder if this forum isn't dominated by those who had had problems and therefore can give a false overall impression? My M9 isn't perfect and my Nikon DSLR comes out in the dust and the downpours and for real "action" shots...but the favourite, the best and the smallest "real" camera is the M9. Delighted.

 

[jaapv]

I think it would be great if Leica put that into a firmware update. There's no reason they couldn't. When Epson did the RD1-S they released the firmware as an update for everyone with an original RD1. Remapping was a simple menu function.

I understand it takes too much processing power and memory. The M8 and even the M9 are more limited in that respect than cameras with integrated electronics.

 

[Ben Z]

I understand it takes too much processing power and memory. The M8 and even the M9 are more limited in that respect than cameras with integrated electronics.

Interesting. I didn't know the M9 is less integrated than the much-older RD1. But might it not be possible for a mapping utility to be used on the owner's computer via the M9 tethered?

 

[jaapv]

Possibly. An interesting idea. The RD 1 used off the shelf Nikon components, mass produced and integrated.

 

[rogerzilla]

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=4379737

http://www.jai.com/SiteCollectionDo...ion_Tech_Note/TechNote-TH-1087-CosmicRays.pdf

And many others

Thanks. You live and learn. I hadn't realised it was neutrons rather than gamma rays.

 

[Phil_F_NM]

So I just talked to Leica NJ.
The warranty after repair of the M8 was in fact extended for a year BUT only on the line items on the invoice so it is not a full warranty and the woman from the service dept. who spoke to me made that clear.
The local shop I'd sent the camera through had said it was 90 days but that is the deal they get on pre-owned demo cameras.
These days they do no issue service certificates like the one seen above for the M6. All the digital M owner gets is a little folded sheet saying that the camera was serviced. There is no warranty information on that sheet, only a date and inspection number.

Phil Forrest

 

[jaapv]

I have it for the M9 as well..... Maybe because you reduced the cost and did not have it repaired fully to Leica's specification ( the stringent acceptance regulations!), they did not extend the full guaranty.

 

[Jeff S]

Or, possibly, NJ and Solms have different practices...wouldn't be the first time (as noted in discussions regarding warranty transfers, passports, etc). I don't recall ever getting a certificate from NJ, but they've always taken care of my needs.

Jeff

 

[Viktor Sebastian]

You misunderstood what I wrote. I said that 100% of the digital Leicas which I have come into contact with (those that I own or my friends have owned) have had to go back to the factory. 9 out of 9 cameras which I have seen in person.

I have seen two M8s and one M9 in the wild. All have needed to goto solms for repair. And all more than once.

🙁

 

[jsrockit]

I've owned 2 M8s and a M9. M8 #1 had the shutter issue (repaired out of warranty at a discount - 2 months), M8.2 had the coffee ring LCD issue (repaired out of warranty free - 2 months), and my M9, knock on wood, has had 0 issues.