Leica LTM Thoughts on this Golden Camera?

Leica M39 screw mount bodies/lenses
Vince Lupo said:
http://leicaclub.net/leicaclub2001/guide/serial_number/Camera%20Serial%20Number(1).htm
Click to expand...

While I can`t say anything about the Luxus serial numbers, the WW2 Leica IIIC production numbers on the list are way off on there and the military issued marked stuff is wrong as well, not a good list to go by for originality

Tom

PS: I have seen a REAL Leica Luxus once in Germany a long time ago and the gold finish, looked alot flatter/duller/paler and it had sort of a creamy look to it, but this one`s reallly good and looks close to an original - there were like 15+ fake cameras built in the 1990`s by really talented forgers in the East Bloc (guys who made fake Nazi era watches and other highly collectable stuff) and they were so good that they fooled some big auction houses and their was a bit of scandal in the Leica scene for a couple of years concerning fake Luxus models

I`d say this is easy a $1,200 camera, just for the "prop" factor alone and while it looks like a real Luxus :)

Too bad they never made a "Wartime" IIIC like that ;)
 
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I wish you succes, but I stay sceptical. The whole thing looks too new and too clean.

Many Leica I's do have a shutter release guard nowadays, but originally...

Erik.
 
Thanks for the input -- believe me, I'm not planning for the Tahiti vacation home just yet, but it does make me pause for a moment and ponder.....

As far as the numbers go, as I say I've seen 68834 listed in a few books, so I'm not strictly relying on that website.
 
The photo of the Luxus in my copy of Rogliatti shows the Luxus with the "hockey stick" on the front panel, just like the model I (A), of which it is a variation. Rogliatti does not include serial numbers in the 6xxxx range as Luxus production. The top plate does look really good--I agree it could be a genuine Leica top plate--or not--I've learned there have been some really good forgers out there.
 
I have just had a look at the "LEICA A AND C LUXUS" section of James L Lager's "Leica" book volume I - cameras. The only thing I can conclude, not being an expert, is that you should contact him to try and sort out if it is a fake or not. If you contact James Lager be sure and let us know the outcome, the suspense is killing me. Good luck.

Bob
 
The person from whom I bought the camera and I are both investigating. He contacted Lars Netopil who didn't think it was a Leitz job, and we haven't yet heard back from Jim. I can definitely understand experts' reluctance to put their 'stamp of approval' on something that could turn out to be a fake. However, the test of the gold gave us a tremendous boost yesterday!

Does anyone out there happen to have an Elmar lens with that type of pin release? In the little research I've done, I haven't come across an Elmar with that type of release.

Like others, I'm leaning towards it being a fake, but several aspects are making me say 'hmmmm'.....
 
Where is the diaphram (aperture blades) located in your lens? Is it right behind the front element or further back in the lens?
 
They are just behind the front element, as are my other Elmars. As well, the 'shape' of the aperture upon full closure (f/18) is the same as my other two Elmars (one 126697, the other unnumbered). Engraving is the same on this lens as on my other mtr Elmar (at least to my eyes). The only difference is this pin release - the other unnumbered one I have doesn't have a pin release, and the numbered one has the familiar concentric ring button.

I also went to the trouble of weighing these lenses to see if there was a difference. 126697 is 113 grams, the unnumbered one is 107 grams, and the gold gilt one is 112 grams. The black Standard C body that I have is 362 grams, and the gilt one is 361 grams.
 
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If the aperture is in the same location as your other Elmars, then the golden lens IS an Elmar.

Whether the lens and the camera are originally gold or plated afterwards is the issue, I think.

You may well have a real Leica, but one that was modified and gold plated after the fact to replicate an original Luxus. That's my theory about your camera.
 
What is the 'Maizenberg' Erik mentions?

I am really don't have the knowledge to pass comment on the origins of this camera but I'd like to congratulate you on acquiring something special, whatever it turns out to be.

It deserves all the attention and interest that it gets.

Peter Coeln [pcoeln@leicashop.com] (Westlicht) might help...he confirmed the identity of my Anastigmat for me...and sold it!

Good luck

Michael
 
I think my dealer friend knows Peter, and hopefully he'll run this by him to see what he thinks. As I say, if anyone out there has an Elmar with this kind of pin release, I'd love to see it.

I'm tending towards the possibility of this camera being given the Luxus treatment after the fact too, but as I say, that serial number has popped up in a couple of books that I've seen, plus one that my dealer friend has (don't remember which book he has though).

Thanks for everyone's input.
 
Isaac S. Maizenberg of Continental Camera, Stokie, Illinois made incredible beautiful golden versions of different Leica models. See Laney, 2nd edition Leica collectors guide, first color plate section.

Erik.
 
Vince,

Compare the engraving of the serial number with that of the Luxus that is shown in Lagers llustrated guide from 1975, page 15, No 48401.

Compare also the engraving on the lens front.

In my opinion the differences are too big.

Erik.
 
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61007&stc=1&d=1214144057

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61008&stc=1&d=1214144114

For reference I attach a couple of pictures which might help in identification.

The first shows the shutter base of five cameras. Left to right

10,XXX I unmodified
65,XXX I modified
89,XXX II unmodified
123,XXX Standard unmodified
313,XXX Standard (chrome) unmodified

Gives you an idea as to where the gold camera might have come from.

The second shows a handful of Elmars. None of mine have a release pin like the Gold camera, indeed none of the 11 o'clock lenses have infinity locks. All my nickel lenses lenses are unnumbered and in mm. cm seems to be chrome and later.

Hope they help

Michael
 
Hi Michael -- Thanks for this great info. Well, as I look at the bottom of my camera, it has the silver wheel with the 'o' as # 313xxx, but it doesn't have that little spring, and that long arm isn't quite the same either. However, it's not quite like the others. So I don't know.....

The lens is unnumbered and in mm, so I think that falls in with what you have. Plus, I found out through another member here that some Elmars did have this pin release.

I haven't heard back from Jim Lager yet, but hopefully at some point. As well, I sent these photos to Ulli Deiss at Leica in Solms, and Gerry Smith at Kindermann Canada. Don't know if either one of them will be able to help, but I know Gerry and his wealth of knowledge, and Ulli is with Leica, so that's got to count for something!
 
If I were had the skill and the patience to attempt to re-create a Luxus, I wouldn't waste time on a copy, I'd start with a real Leica... 'I's are not that expensive.

Michael
 
Update: Heard back from Peter Coein at Leicashop, and here's what he said (drumroll please....)

"For me this camera is not original, even if the number is from a Luxus Leica. It is still possible, that the camera has been restored in a not professional way. Quite a few details are different to original Luxus cameras.
Best Peter
Leica Shop"

Ah well, looks like it's turning out to be what we've all suspected it is: A Golden Camera.
 
Hello Vince,

Not trying to hi-jack the thread or anything, but here`s just something I think you`d find amusing and funny......as you remember I made the joking comment before that it would have been nice to see a "stepped rewind platform" Leica IIIC in gold as a Luxus version.......

Ohh Geeze speak no further, someone`s JUST done it, SADLY with a REAL "Red Curtain" 1941 camera

http://cgi.ebay.com/AUTHENTIC-LEICA...ryZ30030QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Krazy Krazy.......I better not make any jokes about Gold MOOLY motors....they might be listening

:)

Tom
 
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Maybe it's just as well that it isn't (maybe) real - at least I can use it now and not be paranoid about having it around.
 
I saw one of Jack Naylor's real Luxus cameras on display at a PHSNE show some years ago. It was the one he bought on the shopping trip to East Germany right after the Wall fell, with the stereo adapter. The gold was very mellow, rather yellow in tone, and not brightly polished. More sedate like the semi-matte chrome finish. Vince's is closer, the one on eBay is just plain crass. They should include a Hummer H2 with that one on eBay, in equally bad taste.
 
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