Time to buy my first Leica

[ustedalen]

Hey folks. I'm a 20 year old photography student from Norway.
I've been drooling for putting my hands on a Leica and calling it mine for years now, and I finally think I can afford my first. I'm photographing with an Rolleiflex 3.5F which I will never let go off, but I don't really have a 35mm camera (except a few newer SLR's and a DSLR). I also have a huge passion for street photography and travelling all over Europe for a street project I have, so a Leica along with my Rolleiflex is a must.

However, I don't know to much about these cameras, so that's why I'm asking you guys for a few tips.
I'm thinking about using around 10 - 15 000 NOK. In foreign currency, that is with todays rate:
£950 - £1424 (GPB)
€1110 - €1665 (EUR)
$1550 - $2325 (USD)

Can I get a camera and a lens that actually workes perfectly within this amount of money (less is even better. This is just maximum amout that I can spend)?
What camera should I get? I've been thinking about an M3. I've heard a lot of great things about this camera, and it's of course way cheaper than an M7. But is there any other camera I should consider? Can an M3 use the same kind of lenses as an M7 (M1 and M2 has a screwlens, right?)?

How about lenses? I don't want any form of tele, and I almost think that a 50mm is to much of a tele. I've been thinking about a lens somewhere between a 35mm. Is there any good lenses to recommend? A must have? I would like that the lenses weren't to expencive, but i still want quality and I'm willing to pay a little for that.

And I've seen that some lenses are different for others, like that some of them have an own finder (see the picture below). What's the difference between the lens with the "finder" and the one without?

I'm going to London July 28th to continue my European street project, and I'm thinking about maybe looking for a Leica there. Is there any good shops that might sell a non overpriced Leica there?
If not, where should I get my Leica? Ebay? Oslo (no idea where to buy it here)?

I hope that someone takes their time to answer my questions.

Jon

 

[Cabron]

Mint Leica M6 + 35mm Summarit 2.5 - Got both for under $2,000. You can also get a mint 50mm Summicron or Leitz 35mm Summicron for the same price as a 35mm Summarit (around $850).

 

[johannielscom]

All M cameras take M lenses, but you an use an adapter to mount screw mount lenses.

I feel you should get into the types and specifiecs of M cameras more, may I suggest the CameraQuest pages on the Leica M cameras?

When shooting a 35mm lens, there's two options: put a piece of tape over the middle window of your M3 and use the whole finder image for framing. Works fine and you get to enjoy the M3 finder magnification of 0.91. Or: buy an M2 or M4/M4-2/M4-P, which have 35mm frame lines, but smaller finder magnification.

Visit the above mentioned site to find out more about your options!

 

[pagpow]

The advice to read the classic camera profiles at Cameraquest is good advice.
Also, prices in the US have been coming down on the Leica Ms, especially judging by some recent offerings in the classified on this site. But I don't know how proces are reacting in Europe.
I think you need to really think about a several things --
1) is an internal meter of any use to you? I started with an M3, but have been photographic inside more recently and found a BTL meter very useful, so bought an M6, as already suggested
2) if a 50 is for you almost a tele, I would consider not getting an M3 unless you think you will go no wider than a 35mm or 40mm lens -- both can work with the suggestion above about the full viewfinder. If you think you will want wider than 35 (28), I second the suggestion of models (above) w. 28mm frames.

That said, I find a clean viewfinder on smooth M3 hard to beat.

Good luck finding, have fun looking.

 

[sepiareverb]

There's a great MP3 at Popflash now. You'd do worse than that even if you have to hock something. Plus you'd be saving us all some heartache 😀

The Leica 35's are not cheap, but the Summilux pre-ASPH has been coming down in price and is a gem. Tiny too. You could likely get that and an M6 in your price range. M5, 6, 7 & MP have built-in meters the others do not, but with the Rollei you likely either have a meter or can read lighting ok.

 

[elshaneo]

It seems to me that according to your description, a 35mm focal length lens would be the one. With your current budget, an excellent condition Leica M6 and also an excellent condition Leica M 35mm f/2 Summicron IV would be a perfect start ;-)

Let us know later what You did get in the end...

 

[BillBingham2]

jon,

As stated before all Leica Ms take M lenses, adapters open up the world of LTM (Leica screw mount) lenses to an M camera.

Leica build a small number of different lenses over the years with adapters (most built in, one removable) which allowed for these lenses to be used on specific cameras. The 135/2.8 (middle in our picture) needs a bit of a boost in magnification to be used close up and wide open on say an M6. As the M3 had a high finder magnification using a 35mm without an external finder needed them to put goggles on a 35 (the far right side). The 90/2 'Cron in your picture (old and big but a fine lens) needed neither for use on just about any M. The new Ms (M4 and above) had several different frame lines built in making it easy to switch between several different lenses without having to go to goggles or external finders.

The Cameraquest web site is a very well written site with TONS of great info. Many of us have been in your condition (lusting after a Leica) and some still are. You have a wide choice of great new Leicas as well as classic ones to choose from. Read through the treads here about buying from sellers here. I've sold both my Leica Ms as well as six Bessas at very good prices. There's a lot of good advice about models (take a look at an M5, some love it) and where to buy here.

Keep in mind there are other alternatives (Bessa and ZI) that you can get new, many different screw mount options and others (e.g. Nikon) that some people (e.g. like me) prefer for various reasons.

While Leica glass is great, there is some equally good stuff out there from ZI and almost as good from CV. The CV glass is much less expensive and in some cases more unique. While I had a Leica glass kit or two (one new glass, the other old) I ended up using a kit made up of CV and Nikkors, they just had the look I like. These days I have one new CV, two old Nikkors and one new Nikkor and am very happy. When looking at glass I'd recommend pick your anchor lens, the one you love and will use most and bridge out from there. For some it's a 24 or 25, others a 28, others a 35 and many a 50. CL users often love their 40's but I used a CV 40/1.4 for several years rather than a 35 and love it. ZI has a stellar 21/4.5 that many people rave about. I love the CV 25/4 so much I had it in mounts for the two RF systems I used (M and S) and I still have it in S mount.

Read, ask, handle and don't rush. There are lots of M cameras out there in a wide range of conditions.

B2 (;->

P.S. Look here> http://www.cameraquest.com/classics.htm
for hours of great reading!

 

[maddoc]

If you don't need a meter .... M4-P + 35mm Summilux pre-ASPH or 35mm Summicron do a pretty good job for your project. I am not a big fan of the TTL meter cameras without AE. Reason is that you need to bring the camera to your eye just to meter, while with a small hand-hold meter you can easily take some readings and shoot with the according settings. Saves some time and is less attracting interest. Just my two cents of course ... 😉

 

[matt335]

This may help you. I bought a Leica M4 with a Summaron 35mm lens and a Voigtlander VCII for about $850USD. This is a wonderful straight forward camera. Works like a new one !

 

[Tom A]

Within your budget you have a lot of choices. M6's with built in meters, M4-P's with no meters, classics like the M4 or M2's. I left out the M3 as you stated that the 50 is "almost" a tele for you.
With Leica there is a philosophy of "less is more". One body - one lens is not unheard of.
It also depends on your shooting style, low light performance, day light "super" sharp, fine grain film or stuff pushed to the limit.
As a starter kit you cant really go wrong with a M2/M4P/M6 and a 35mm lens.
M2 has the advantage of just showing the 35 frame and no confusing other frames. Fairly bullet proof body, simple and very much Leica Zen! No meter, no fancy finder etc.
The M4P is a more complex camera, but it does have 28 frames built in, you can motorize it (if you so desire). The 35 frame is paired with a 90 mm frame so it is getting a bit cluttered. Again, a pretty well bullet proof body as to lasting a long time. No meter.
The M6 , basically a M4P with batteries and a meter (and a good one at that). Again, multiple finder frames fight for attention in the finder.

Lenses: There is a plethora of good lenses available - particularly in the 35 focal length.
Assuming a price of $700 (M2) to $1100-1200 (M6) with the M4P around $900-1000. This would get you a good, serviced body with most likely decades of use left in it. Any of these would leave you $1000-1300 for a lens - or a couple of lenses.
If you are aiming for low light - as well as "regular" light - a pre-asph Summilux 35 or a Nokton 35f1.4 would serve you well.
Ultra fast and very high performer - the 35f1.2 Nokton is the only game in town - but it is big and a bit of an overkill for daylight shooting.
The Summicrons, at least in its later guises are a bit over priced for what they deliver. A Zeiss ZM Biogon 35f2 is a better lens.
My advice is -Buy a body and one lens and start with a 35. Shoot the hell out of it - a couple of 100 rolls at least. This will give you an idea of if the rangefinder is working for you - and, if you find it is not, you can easily resell it with little or no loss.
On the other hand, if you fall for the rangefinder, you have a good starter kit and can keep building it up over time to something you can use for a long time without sacrificing image quality.
In "real" life you really dont need more than two bodies and maybe 3 lenses for most everything. A wide, 21mm, a 35 and possibly a 50 or even a 90. It is portable - even for a long days hike through a city and your feet can adjust for missing focal lengths.
One good "walk about" kit that I frequently use is a M2 with a 40mm f1.4 Nokton SC or MC. You should be able to pick one of these kits up for 50-55% of your budget. The 40 might be a bit longer than you want, but a step backwards solves that!! Not a bad starter kit anyway.
As always, go to Flickr and "tag" the lenses you are considering. Not perfect for resolution, but you get a good idea of coverage, tonal rendition etc. Probably the best "reference" list ever assembled on optics (and cameras).

 

[thomasw_]

Welcome!

M2 + UC Hexanon 35/2 on a M-adapter.

^That kit will do most everything. Very portable. Push 400 film to 800 or more and that lens will do even for lower light.

 

[payasam]

Agree that for your proposed work a 35mm would probably be best. The M3 alone does not have a finder frame for that focal length. Do remember that the M4-P and all earlier models do not have meters. If your Rollei has no meter, then this should not be a problem.

 

[Debusti Paolo]

Did you consider a contax g2 set???😉

 

[fixbones]

Well done!!
I am waiting to join the legion of Leicaphiles too

Yesterday, i paid for:
Leica M2, CV 35mm f/2.5 c color skopar (silver), sekonic l-308s, Screw to M mount adapter and also a voigtlander deluxe strap. Oh...and also Tom A's soft release!!

Received confirmation that they have all been shipped.
So i am waiting..................

 

[NathanJD]

I agree and want to stress also that it might be prudent for you to research leica cameras a lot more before making a decision on what camera will be right for you. there are reasons why Leicas are desired and also technical boundries that existed when each model was produced so you really need to know for yourself what the difference is between the Ms before jumping in head first. another 1 up for the cameraquest website - get over there and learn about what it is you're about to blow that much money on 😉

 

[ZebGoesZeiss]

This is all highly subjective, but I don't think you can go wrong with a Leica M6 in decent condition. Like others said, that should set you back around $1000-1100. As for 35mm lenses, there really aren't any "bad ones". If you're lucky, you can find an M6 for around $1000, that would leave you with enough cash to pretty much take your pick among the modern/classic lenses out there (well, not the 35mm Summilux ASPH, but except for that...)

 

[David Hughes]

Well, you've got a Rollei so must have a meter... So I'll put my money on a simple M2 with 35, 50 and 90 mm frame lines. I'd go for a 35mm f/2 or f/2·8 and a 90mm f/2 or f/2·8 of about the same age as the camera. Mostly because they are all good.

A 35 and 90 will cover places and people and I'd suggest that you ignore all the other makes of lens (although they are perfectly respectable) simply because the point of having a Leica is the glass on the front.

I can't comment on your budget because prices vary so much and so does the luck that's needed at the same time.

In your shoes I'd think about the cost of the bits and pieces as well. These can go on adding to the cost at an alarming rate. I mean lens and body caps, hoods and an instruction book for the camera with the wrap round "quick guide".

M2's are not in the first flush of youth and it might be best to buy from a local dealer so that (1) you get some sort of guarantee and (2) you can get it back to them easily if anything happens.

A lot of people have mentioned the view-finder magnification. I'd never thought about it until I read about it here and then I checked and wondered what the fuss was about. A straight forward vf like on the M's works well whatever the specification may be. Mostly because it's very simple optics and well designed and made.

I'll wish you luck with the search.

Regards, David

 

[danmitch]

Hi

Others have offered great advice on cameras and lenses, so I won't repeat what has been said. You asked about shops in London, there are several all of which would have something great within your stated budget. I would suggest you should visit Red Dot Cameras in Old Street, RG Lewis in Southampton Row and Aperture Photographic in Museum Street.

I am sure you will find them very helpful.

OK, I can't resist - my advice would be to get an M2 / M4-P / M4-2 "user condition body" with a warranty (all the above dealers will offer good warranties), whichever you can find cheapest - then spend whatever is left / as much as possible on the lens - a 35 Summicron? In other words prioritise the lens ...

Let me know if I can help further from a London point of view!

Dan

 

[sanmich]

M2 + cs 35mm f2.5 and you're under the 1000$ mark with a great street combo.

 

[januaryman]

I read everything I could get my eyes on about Leicas, and almost went barnack, but ultimately I saw I really needed a more useful M. The simplicity of the M2 won me over and I never regretted it. Since then I picked up a good deal on an M4 and like it as much as the M2. Oddly, I find the spool loading M2 less troublesome to load than the "faster" loading M4. Forgetting to manually set the frame counter on the M2 sometimes devils me. And since I had many Canon LTM lenses, I just bought adapters and I was set. If you want a very nice 35 for cheap there is the Canon 35/2.0 oir 35/2.8 - I have both and like the 2.0 better, but it is hard to find. If you do color, the CV 35 Skopar is very good indeed, but feels a bit less "solid." I have it and the very nive CV 35/1.7 Ultron. Clearly I have too many lenses. All are good. You can get a decent kit for $1,000 I bet with the options I noted. I have sets on flickr seperated by lens, so you can view the results that I got out of my copies.

You're going to love using your new camera, whatever you decide.