Trying to identify real from fake

[BillBingham2]

I doubt that Leitz would have grown much following among pros if their response to the average knocked about camera had been a "sorry Sir, we know that this is supposed to be a professional camera, but the top cap on yours is bent and only Wetzlar may engrave the numbers, so you'll have to wait six weeks for the next boat".

If they took that approach I'm sure you are right. But.....

If they took a few minutes to hammer out the top enough to get it working, put her back together and test it well. That is what most pros want, working NOW! Then ordered the top with the same serial number from Home Office. When it came in asked them to come back for a short swap out of tops and a reduced price CLA. That might work better with not to much more effort. Years ago Nikon Professional Service had loaner "Stuff" while your camera/lens was in getting fixed that worked very well.

They could also have a parts camera to scavenge/harvest from as a short term solution. Perhaps even a loaner camera that is older but close enough to get the Pro up and running again.

B2 (;-?

 

[johannielscom]

Another two tell-tale characteristics: No Russian look-a-Leica cameras were ever produced with four screws holding the accessory shoe. They all had three screws.
And neither did the Russian cameras have a diopter lever like these cameras all have.

 

[BillBingham2]

Another two tell-tale characteristics: No Russian look-a-Leica cameras were ever produced with four screws holding the accessory shoe. They all had three screws.
And neither did the Russian cameras have a diopter lever like these cameras all have.

Those sound like reasonable proofs. Well done!

 

[Erik van Straten]

The one-piece top plate cannot be faked. I presume that No. 4846 got a new top plate in a Leitz agency abroad, hence the strange font of the digits.

Erik.

 

[enasniearth]

The engraveing matches those on late Leica iiif top plates ,
The Leica script is very m series like .
Probably a replacement top plate ( as others have suggested )
Engraved with the original number .
There are many interesting conversions of earlier cameras into later models that retain the original number .
This is not a conversion just a later plate on earlier body .

 

[Rob-F]

No one seems to have commented on the four-digit serial numbers, which are much too early for these cameras. OP, did you obliterate the rest of the numbers, or is that how they really are? They ought to have six digit numbers, for these models. But that is the only thing that looks wrong.

 

[Rob-F]

All are real. The top one is a IIIc-f (conversion from IIIc to IIIf).

Yes, the first four digits of the serial number are consistent with a IIIc from the 1946-47 production batch. In fact, the numbers on all these examples seem correct as the first four digits of the respective models. For some reason the last two digits are not shown.

 

[Rob-F]

Blank top plates given to Service Centers? Possible, but I would expect them to be stamped and sent from the factory when needed.

B2 (;-?

I have a personal communication from someone who was a technician back in the day. He wrote that he could just order a new blank top plate from Wetzlar with no problem.

 

[Timmyjoe]

No one seems to have commented on the four-digit serial numbers, which are much too early for these cameras. OP, did you obliterate the rest of the numbers, or is that how they really are? They ought to have six digit numbers, for these models. But that is the only thing that looks wrong.

I just removed the last two digits of the serial numbers.

 

[farlymac]

No one seems to have commented on the four-digit serial numbers, which are much too early for these cameras. OP, did you obliterate the rest of the numbers, or is that how they really are? They ought to have six digit numbers, for these models. But that is the only thing that looks wrong.

If you look closely, you can see where the last two digits have been photoshopped out, at least on the last two cameras..

PF

 

[BillBingham2]

I have a personal communication from someone who was a technician back in the day. He wrote that he could just order a new blank top plate from Wetzlar with no problem.

Cool info, thanks.

B2 (;->

 

[Scrambler]

AFAIK the "fake"Leicas (i.e. non-Leicas pretending to be Leicas) are "copies"of Leica IIs, VERY occasionally Leica 1s or earlier types.

Leica IIIs would be hard to copy, and Leica IIIb onward impossible to fake even to fool the average punter - and why would you because a Leica IIIc is about the same price as an equal condition FSU RF?

There are websites to point out the differences between genuine Leica II and faked FSU cameras.

 

[sevo]

AFAIK the "fake"Leicas (i.e. non-Leicas pretending to be Leicas) are "copies"of Leica IIs, VERY occasionally Leica 1s or earlier types.

Leica IIIs would be hard to copy, and Leica IIIb onward impossible to fake even to fool the average punter - and why would you because a Leica IIIc is about the same price as an equal condition FSU RF?

There are websites to point out the differences between genuine Leica II and faked FSU cameras.

In the early nineties, after the wall fell, I saw tons of "Leica II" and very few "Leica III" fakes (even more obvious, with a non-operational long time knob stuck on) on German flea markets. But all of them soon vanished, as well-preserved FSU cameras increased in price beyond the 20-50DM they could get for a Leica-defaced one...

 

[sevo]

No one seems to have commented on the four-digit serial numbers, which are much too early for these cameras. OP, did you obliterate the rest of the numbers, or is that how they really are?

I though that is obvious - there were no attempts to disguise the Photoshop brush. Defacing Leica serials is common all over the net, but seems to be rather particular to US owners of Leica cameras (collectors of other cameras even collaborate to create public databases of serials).

I never figured out why people do it - perhaps legends of inherited cameras once stolen by GI fathers and grandfathers after WWII that were seized after publication, which have somehow grown to encompass even cameras made way past that threshold...

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

I've come late to the party and can only add that no USSR made one had the die cast body and also, looking at my old IIIc, some IIIc's didn't have 'Germany' marked on the top plate. Not needed during the war I guess and so left off or forgotten...

The Zorki with the 'lavatory pan' shutter guard is nearest to the IIIc's; here's an old photo to so the main differences.

Hope this helps.

Regards, David

PS (EDIT) This will repay some study:- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/leica-cam...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

and 166 UKP is about USD 250 or 215 Euros...

 

[Dralowid]

I have a top cover for a Leica II that has no serial number engraved on it. I also have the same in the post war conversion style. I have seen a top cover for a IIIc with no serial number.

 

[Dralowid]

Hi,



PS (EDIT) This will repay some study:- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/leica-cam...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

and 166 UKP is about USD 250 or 215 Euros...

David, Yes I saw that Zorki and smiled. The early Feds make the best II copies, they have more of the correct features, shutter button, collimation hole, kick in the viewfinder window etc etc blah blah, I will go and get my anorak now.

Michael
(and to think we criticise the youth of today for spending far too long in front of screens talking to people they haven't met...)

 

[Rob-F]

I though that is obvious - there were no attempts to disguise the Photoshop brush.

I thought I could see something faintly, but wanted to be sure it wasn't my imagination.

I never figured out why people do it - perhaps legends of inherited cameras once stolen by GI fathers and grandfathers after WWII ...

They sometimes still do it today, even on recently made Leicas, before posting a picture of it. And when mentioning serial numbers of a Leica they own, they x out the last four digits, something like, "I have this Leica M2, serial No. 102xxxx . . ."

I believe it is a precaution against someone on the web trying to claim it as their camera, "Hey that's mine, someone snatched it from me! Give it back!"

 

[David Hughes]

David, Yes I saw that Zorki and smiled. The early Feds make the best II copies, they have more of the correct features, shutter button, collimation hole, kick in the viewfinder window etc etc blah blah, I will go and get my anorak now.

Michael
(and to think we criticise the youth of today for spending far too long in front of screens talking to people they haven't met...)

Gasp! You mean it's old gits in the Eastern parts of Europe (mentioning no countries in particular) who are turning out all the fakes?

Regards, David