ptpdprinter
Veteran
Last post I saw he was still taking advice on whether the asking price was fair. Did he finally pull the trigger?
What 4x5 for Beginners ?
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Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
Like you, I suffered from photo GAS for quite a while but I was in the US Navy and had a good paycheck as well as a locker of gear I could play with since I was a photographer.
If you are even thinking of doing street photography, get a Speed Graphic, Crown Graphic, Super Graphic, Busch Pressman D or Wista RF. Out of those the Graphics are the most common with the Crown being the most desirable for weight concerns. If you ever would want to use a barrel lens though, you are limited to the Speed Graphic.
Don't think about a Chamonix because it has a ton of movements and is new and shiny and all. The Chamonix is a true view camera and you have to focus with the ground glass. This is not something that is possible for a beginner to do handheld.
I've been using 4x5 on and off since 2000, having started with a Crown Graphic with a known good rangefinder and a good lens. These days for 4x5 I shoot a Nagaoka which is a super-light field camera with full movements. I purchased the 4x5 specifically for its weight but at a cost of slightly shorter bellows so I can't use lenses over 300mm.
All these choices have their individual advantages and disadvantages.
The Crown and Speed Graphics have a reputation for durability and easy repair. I shot my university senior thesis book with a Speed Graphic that I was given then I fully restored. Watch out with the Speed Graphic because the focal plane shutter can be disintegrating. The rubber coating on the silk can be flaking off after these last 50 or more years. The metered gaps in the cloth can also be off and not parallel which would lead to uneven exposure on the frame. Sometimes the whole shutter blind needs to be recemented to the drum. All sorts of things can go wrong with these cameras although they usually are fine, even after decades of use.
The Crown is slightly lighter and shallower as it doesn't have a focal plane shutter. As such, it can take wider lenses than the Speed.
After I returned from Iraq in 2005, I was given a Crown Graphic shell without a lensboard or support. It sat around for a few years then I sawed it in half to shorten the lens registration and I made this camera:
It was a "point-and-shoot" 4x5 with a 65mm Super Angulon stuck onto the focusing helical of a broken Nikon 50mm f/1.4 lens.
Get a Graphic with a Graflock back, not a standard spring back. These will allow use of a whole range of film accessories. The spring back can only take standard 4x5 film holders.
The Busch Pressman D has a rotating back which allows you to shoot horizontal or verticals without turning the camera, This can be beneficial for a few reasons. The Busch also has a little bit more movement than the Graphics. The back of the Busch is not a Graflock back either, so take that into consideration. The Pressman cameras are excellent in spite of this small limitation.
The "ultimate" field camera with a rangefinder would be a Wista RF but they are well above that price range of yours.
I'd say like other members that you should concentrate on the gear you have but you're going to scratch that itch regardless of what any of us say. So, get the best condition Graphic or Busch Pressman model D (not the C) you can find, with a very good condition lens in a well maintained shutter. The basic 135mm Raptar by Wollensak will shoot circles around all but the very best Leica as long as the glass is in good condition and the shutter is working well. Also look for a 127mm Ektar in shutter.
You have to budget in film holders, a developing tank, a large changing bag, and of course, film. 4x5 is not cheap. You'll go through $50USD in film in under 50 exposures. So, that is why most large format shooters are a bit more contemplative and stuck to a tripod, waiting for the good light.
Phil Forrest
If you are even thinking of doing street photography, get a Speed Graphic, Crown Graphic, Super Graphic, Busch Pressman D or Wista RF. Out of those the Graphics are the most common with the Crown being the most desirable for weight concerns. If you ever would want to use a barrel lens though, you are limited to the Speed Graphic.
Don't think about a Chamonix because it has a ton of movements and is new and shiny and all. The Chamonix is a true view camera and you have to focus with the ground glass. This is not something that is possible for a beginner to do handheld.
I've been using 4x5 on and off since 2000, having started with a Crown Graphic with a known good rangefinder and a good lens. These days for 4x5 I shoot a Nagaoka which is a super-light field camera with full movements. I purchased the 4x5 specifically for its weight but at a cost of slightly shorter bellows so I can't use lenses over 300mm.
All these choices have their individual advantages and disadvantages.
The Crown and Speed Graphics have a reputation for durability and easy repair. I shot my university senior thesis book with a Speed Graphic that I was given then I fully restored. Watch out with the Speed Graphic because the focal plane shutter can be disintegrating. The rubber coating on the silk can be flaking off after these last 50 or more years. The metered gaps in the cloth can also be off and not parallel which would lead to uneven exposure on the frame. Sometimes the whole shutter blind needs to be recemented to the drum. All sorts of things can go wrong with these cameras although they usually are fine, even after decades of use.
The Crown is slightly lighter and shallower as it doesn't have a focal plane shutter. As such, it can take wider lenses than the Speed.
After I returned from Iraq in 2005, I was given a Crown Graphic shell without a lensboard or support. It sat around for a few years then I sawed it in half to shorten the lens registration and I made this camera:
It was a "point-and-shoot" 4x5 with a 65mm Super Angulon stuck onto the focusing helical of a broken Nikon 50mm f/1.4 lens.
Get a Graphic with a Graflock back, not a standard spring back. These will allow use of a whole range of film accessories. The spring back can only take standard 4x5 film holders.
The Busch Pressman D has a rotating back which allows you to shoot horizontal or verticals without turning the camera, This can be beneficial for a few reasons. The Busch also has a little bit more movement than the Graphics. The back of the Busch is not a Graflock back either, so take that into consideration. The Pressman cameras are excellent in spite of this small limitation.
The "ultimate" field camera with a rangefinder would be a Wista RF but they are well above that price range of yours.
I'd say like other members that you should concentrate on the gear you have but you're going to scratch that itch regardless of what any of us say. So, get the best condition Graphic or Busch Pressman model D (not the C) you can find, with a very good condition lens in a well maintained shutter. The basic 135mm Raptar by Wollensak will shoot circles around all but the very best Leica as long as the glass is in good condition and the shutter is working well. Also look for a 127mm Ektar in shutter.
You have to budget in film holders, a developing tank, a large changing bag, and of course, film. 4x5 is not cheap. You'll go through $50USD in film in under 50 exposures. So, that is why most large format shooters are a bit more contemplative and stuck to a tripod, waiting for the good light.
Phil Forrest
newfilm
Well-known
Yes, I guess you missed the result of the purchase in one of the thread that he deleted, I was reading through the collectives then poof it was gone.
Phil that was marvellous! the wanderlust travelwide certainly reminisce to this 🙂
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
Thanks! I used it for almost a year then a friend who had been lusting over it for that whole time offered me a fair amount to buy it so I sold the beast.
I wanted to add to this thread that 4x5 is easy to fool with in this way, ie: the homemade route.
I have a 4x5 pinhole camera I made out of a cigar box and it gives fantastic images as long as I compose nicely. My next project will be a cigar box 4x5 that has a wideangle lens. the travelwide is a nice idea but I'd rather take a few cheap parts and make myself a camera that does the same thing.
Phil Forrest
jusxusfanatic
Well-known
Thanks for the advice 🙂 but yea as always, I should use what I have first. Your camera looks awesome btw 🙂
Someone offered my a rittreck 4x5 on LF forum. Tbh, I won't be using one handheld. I'll be using it for landscapes mostly
Someone offered my a rittreck 4x5 on LF forum. Tbh, I won't be using one handheld. I'll be using it for landscapes mostly
Eric T
Well-known
Consider the new Intrepid 4x5 camera from the UK. I bought one when they were a Kickstarter project. Nice camera for the price. Good place to start.
Eric T
Well-known
Here's the link for the Intrepid 4x5 camera:
https://intrepidcamera.co.uk/products/intrepid-camera
https://intrepidcamera.co.uk/products/intrepid-camera
jusxusfanatic
Well-known
Yea, think I mentioned that earlier 🙂 But thanks for letting me know that it's a good place to start
Fixcinater
Never enough smoky peat
I've used a war-time Anny Speed Graphic for a couple of years now. Ektar 127 for rangefinder "fast" shooting and a 210/4.5 ancient barrel B&L 5x7 Series 1c lens for everything else I can, as I prefer that focal length.
It's not for everyone, I'm not sure it's for me, but it's fun to play around with. Keeping with a cheap press camera/simple setup makes it easier to justify having it around if you don't use it all that often.
Sheet film takes a lot more infrastructure than either 135 or 120.
It's not for everyone, I'm not sure it's for me, but it's fun to play around with. Keeping with a cheap press camera/simple setup makes it easier to justify having it around if you don't use it all that often.
Sheet film takes a lot more infrastructure than either 135 or 120.
jusxusfanatic
Well-known
True. Looked at some reviews again and I might go for the intrepid
Jake Mongey
Well-known
I've literally just started working with 4x5 and am borrowing the college's 4x5 which they're pretty happy someone is using finally. It's a MPP micro technical which is a British made technical camera, It folds up into a small box and has ground glass viewing as well as rise and shift on the front. It also has back adjustments to a limited degree. Its built like a tank and has provisions for a RF link as well.
Also the lens is a Schnieder Symmar 135mm 5.6 which has the interesting function of being turned into around a 260mm lens by removing the front assembly in front of the shutter.
When I looked on eBay at the price of one of these it can be had for around £500.
Not really any comparisons just my experience with this camera which has been serving me well the last month or so. Have to return it on Friday 🙁
Also the lens is a Schnieder Symmar 135mm 5.6 which has the interesting function of being turned into around a 260mm lens by removing the front assembly in front of the shutter.
When I looked on eBay at the price of one of these it can be had for around £500.
Not really any comparisons just my experience with this camera which has been serving me well the last month or so. Have to return it on Friday 🙁
jusxusfanatic
Well-known
Looks good, but I'm mainly looking for a field camera like the intrepid
f16sunshine
Moderator
I still have my old Cambo that was ten years old 20 years ago when I bought it.
Last year I saw the very same one in super condition with a 150mm lens and a box of 2 sided holders for $150.
I joked with the guy that he would probably be sitting on it for a while.
Justin, If you're serious about getting into LF, buy a Monorail of some sort.
You can double your budget, and bet the whole thing that, if you buy a crown you will want to try movements while the first sheets are still drying.
If you're not serious... get whatever you think is coolest and push a few boxes through until you get bored.
Don't spend a fortune on anything. The experience of that large negative is going to blow your mind and supplant gas.
No reason to have fancy rigs or fast lenses.
Be thrifty until you're completely in love with the process.
Good luck!
Last year I saw the very same one in super condition with a 150mm lens and a box of 2 sided holders for $150.
I joked with the guy that he would probably be sitting on it for a while.
Justin, If you're serious about getting into LF, buy a Monorail of some sort.
You can double your budget, and bet the whole thing that, if you buy a crown you will want to try movements while the first sheets are still drying.
If you're not serious... get whatever you think is coolest and push a few boxes through until you get bored.
Don't spend a fortune on anything. The experience of that large negative is going to blow your mind and supplant gas.
No reason to have fancy rigs or fast lenses.
Be thrifty until you're completely in love with the process.
Good luck!
jusxusfanatic
Well-known
Thanks! I guess that makes sense. To me, the body doesn't matter that much as the results depend on the film and the lens. Plus, the intrepid is very light
The Cambo has a decent price, although it's gonna be really heavy to lug around
The Cambo has a decent price, although it's gonna be really heavy to lug around
Corran
Well-known
Unless you are shooting "landscapes" from road pull-offs, monorails aren't practical. At least in my experience where I regularly hike 5, 10, or 15 miles in an afternoon with a full 4x5 or 8x10 pack. Weight is a huge concern.
jusxusfanatic
Well-known
Yup that's right, that's mainly why I want something a bit lighter, although it doesn't really bother me
jusxusfanatic
Well-known
Someone offered my a wista 45n, is it any good comparing to the one I want which is the intrepid
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
It isn't just camera, at least for monorails it is also the tripod. I used regular tripod for all metal monorail to get to my spots and it was no fun in the strong winds...
Beemermark
Veteran
Get a crown Graphic and you won't go wrong to start with. Another good inexpensive camera is the Tachahari, I recently sold mine after 25 years and used it better than my far more expensive Toyo 45AX. Also, monorails are dirt cheap, super light and as long as you don't start trying gymnastics with them will do you fine. Go over to Largeformatforum.com and look around. You only need one lens to start. Learn the process before getting wrapped up in tilts & swings, lenses and expensive cameras.
Corran
Well-known
LOL what?
My first 4x5 camera was a Toyo 45GII - official specs say over 12 pounds for just camera.
My favorite hiking camera is a Chamonix 45n1 - weight clocks in at about 3 pounds.
There's of course many other kinda of monorails and/or field cams but as a rule monorails are pretty much always heavier. That was the point of a "studio camera." A bog-standard Calumet CC400 is almost 10 pounds. Paired with the appropriate tripod you are looking at 20 pounds before even adding the auxiliary stuff. My 4x5 bag with Chamonix and a few lenses plus a CF tripod is only about 10 pounds itself.
I lugged around my Toyo on a trip exactly ONCE, and then I went home and bought a Crown Graphic. The Toyo is still great for architecture and extreme movements as I have a bag bellows and all that, but definitely not a good choice for lugging around.
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