shimokita
白黒
No single approach...
Back button focus using center point only for the dSLR
Face recognition with the mirror-less
Manual focus with the Nikon F3P & RF
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Back button focus using center point only for the dSLR
Face recognition with the mirror-less
Manual focus with the Nikon F3P & RF
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Filter Factor
Established
Keep in mind this is a group that still carries a certain distrust of cameras which use batteries...
Or any camera that has any plastic parts of any kind. 
peterm1
Veteran
I just performed a small informal experiment involving the use of AF multiple (i.e. multiple focus points) on my Leica Q (I could have used an M4/3 camera but the Q is pretty up to date so I thought it should provide a reasonable base case.). The subject was a small garden statue about 4 meters away. On either side of the main subject (and some distance away from it, and closer to me) are two bushes. To the left of the statue as I look at it, and about a meter away from the statue, are an outdoor table and chair
In short, the results were much as I expected based on past experience - the camera focused somewhere different each time I pressed the button (at least there is that to be said for it - it is kind of an advantage) but only once (after several tries) did it focus on the statue which is what I wanted - even though it was relatively close to the centre of my frame (which I had hoped might possibly help). Mind you, each time I pressed the button focus was as near to instantaneous as I can figure.
But this exemplifies the kind of problem I alluded to in my earlier post. If that were a group of people in the street I definitively would have missed the shot - the subjects would have moved to a less desirable composition or out of frame altogether before I nailed focus and the opportunity would have passed. As I tend to use a shallow depth of field and medium teles, focus accuracy on a specific subject is critical. (People who shoot wide angles admittedly have an easier time of it in this respect - they can just focus on the group - many cameras do this - and know that DOF will do the rest. In effect they are using the camera's AF capabilities to zone focus).
OK, I admit I understand that multi focus point systems tend to give priority to the closest potential subject in most camera systems and sometimes that is perfectly OK depending upon the photographer's intentions. And I freely accept that other camera systems might have better algorithms which would make a better "fist" of it. And at least in some systems you can preselect a smaller group of focus points to use for this purpose - but that can entail the need to go into a menu to change the settings or at the very least the ability to use your thumb as you hold the camera to your eye to swap focus points using a thumb wheel on the back of the camera. Neither are particularly fast nor functional and if I am shooting with my left eye and trying to simultaneously use the thumb wheel to change focus points (assuming a specific camera has this function) I need to move my eye from the finder and lose composition or risk poking myself in the eye with my thumb. Neither solution seems tenable to me.
I have read about and seen pictures taken by wild life photographers who shoot birds in flight with long tele lenses. The problem here is that the best modern AF DSLR systems can nail focus on rapidly moving subjects but will tend to focus with pin point accuracy on the wing tip that is closest to the photographer. Not on the birds eye which is what the photographer wants. Admittedly its a big ask but this kind of demonstrates the problem with AF systems as they stand - they can make a dumb choice about where to focus then brilliantly execute their dumb choice to get a pin sharp image of something you do not want.(OK I understand that facial recognition of animals is now becoming possible and perhaps this will fix that specific issue as described above).
And of course in street shooting there is seldom time to change settings - after all the relationship between moving subjects is usually changing all the time and it is necessary to use the VF to closely watch for the best relationship / composition emerge and then to press the shutter button at the instant it does. There is usually simply no time or opportunity to previsualize the image you want then preset the camera's most desirable focus points, then wait for the desired composition to evolve. It might be a different matter if there is a single and isolated moving subject in which case I suppose that multi focus points (and focus tracking) should be more reliable in terms of the ability to pick the subject I want (given there is only one in this case) and nail focus, but single isolated subjects are not necessarily all that frequent in my case at least. On the other hand if I am shooting a single subject and if the single subject is not moving - I might as well use MF anyway.
I do use AF when I can. It is often very convenient. But for dynamic street shots where there are crowds of people all moving about (or even some more static shots as in the examples below) I miss more (good) shots than I get (not all due to focusing issues) and the best compromise I can usually make is to use single AF and single central focus point to focus then quickly recompose, then shoot. Or if I do not even have time for that I simply shoot with the main subject in the centre of the frame (ignoring all rules of composition) and crop afterwards to a better composition in post.
And in shots like the following one you had better be using MF or single shot centre focus point or you will definitely miss the focus on the young lady in the window (not that I nailed it absolutely perfectly in this case, probably because I was shooting a fairly fast tele lens wide open - but I sincerely doubt AF could have done much better had it been available to me, which it was not)
Cafe by Life in Shadows, on FlickrAnd probably much the same could be said here, for obvious reasons had AF been available (too much choice of a potential subject / focus point for the camera to reliably make it without my involvement)
A Thoughtful Moment Between Bites by Life in Shadows, on Flickr
John Bragg
Well-known
Mostly manual focus cameras in my collection. However I do own Nikon F5 and F100 and use back button focus in continuous mode with shutter button focus disabled in the custom menu. For moving subject, hold button in. Also focus point is set to the center one with Dynamic AF enabled. That way I tend to spot focus with most things, but I'm prepared for fast movement with no need to change any settings.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
What's fire hose photography? Continuous capture....?
The technique of capturing a skater as in the photo presented is simply observing where the skater might be when the key moment you want will occur, setting the focus and exposure for that moment, and then waiting for it to occur, being ready to make the exposure at the right time just before the moment. It's more an exercise in patience and preparedness than anything else.
I do these from time to time, usually takes one or two tries. I never shoot with the camera on continuous.
Guess I'm just gonna be old school. I get my photos.
G
Exactly... we are lucky that we can basically use 100+ years of cameras to make wonderful images.
charjohncarter
Veteran
Fire hose photography is what you see at the side lines of a NFL game: 12 FPS (also known as a Canon marketing tool).What's fire hose photography? Continuous capture....?
The technique of capturing a skater as in the photo presented is simply observing where the skater might be when the key moment you want will occur, setting the focus and exposure for that moment, and then waiting for it to occur, being ready to make the exposure at the right time just before the moment. It's more an exercise in patience and preparedness than anything else.
I do these from time to time, usually takes one or two tries. I never shoot with the camera on continuous.
Guess I'm just gonna be old school. I get my photos.
G
If you read my posts I have nothing against AF. I still like to do it my way; so AF at times and MF at others.
Beemermark
Veteran
I still prefer manual focus for most situations. I'm still a little amazed when I look back at old sport photos I took and see how I captured the moment in sharp focus. Anyway I ran across these negatives recently and scanned them to upload. Taken with a Nikon f3 and wither a 200/4 or 300mm/4 Nikkor. Tri-x pushed one stop (never liked to push it two stops). Small Nebraska town rodeo. Most sports and car racing were somewhat easy to capture by pre-focusing on the spot were you expected the action to be. Rodeos were the hardest because you never knew where the action would be. They come out of gate and can head in almost any direction, plus it was dark -
Beemermark
Veteran
peterm. I agree with everything you said except "I have read about and seen pictures taken by wild life photographers who shoot birds in flight with long tele lenses." (using AF).
It's easy to take pictures of birds in flight. Usually I just set the lens at infinity or if relatively close I prefocus. With a long AF tele (which I have) it's next to impossible to get birds in flight in the camera's AF sensor. So the AF lens see blue skies and goes into a wild AF hunt, by which time the birds are in the next state. So I put the AF lens in manual and preset the focus. Works well for air shows also.
It's easy to take pictures of birds in flight. Usually I just set the lens at infinity or if relatively close I prefocus. With a long AF tele (which I have) it's next to impossible to get birds in flight in the camera's AF sensor. So the AF lens see blue skies and goes into a wild AF hunt, by which time the birds are in the next state. So I put the AF lens in manual and preset the focus. Works well for air shows also.
charjohncarter
Veteran
I still prefer manual focus for most situations. I'm still a little amazed when I look back at old sport photos I took and see how I captured the moment in sharp focus. Anyway I ran across these negatives recently and scanned them to upload. Taken with a Nikon f3 and wither a 200/4 or 300mm/4 Nikkor. Tri-x pushed one stop (never liked to push it two stops). Small Nebraska town rodeo. Most sports and car racing were somewhat easy to capture by pre-focusing on the spot were you expected the action to be. Rodeos were the hardest because you never knew where the action would be. They come out of gate and can head in almost any direction, plus it was dark -
Those are great, reminds me of the Clackamas County Fair.
Michael Markey
Veteran
Rodeos were the hardest because you never knew where the action would be. They come out of gate and can head in almost any direction, plus it was dark -
Yes with horses it depends on the discipline .
The easiest is jumping because you can just focus on the jump but you need to understand how the horse jumps because ideally you want to capture the bascule (This is often described as the horse taking the shape of a dolphin jumping out of the water, with the horse’s back up, and its head reaching forward and down over the fence. A horse with a good bascule is a horse with an extremely round jump, while a horse with a poor bascule may jump flat with his head in the air and his back hollow).
Without that it becomes less of a good shot in the eyes of an equestrian .
In Dressage its possible to manually focus but you don`t want to catch the horse on the forehand and in all honesty ,apart from dumb luck , you`re best using a short burst .
It`s far too quick to judge with the eye .
Again the photographer might think they have a good shot from a photographic point of view but any equestrian will be looking at the posture and shape on point of capture .
Your last shot is my favourite type .
Horse on one leg .
This shot with the antiquated AF of a 5D3
phrons
Established
I think it’s funny to assume that just because someone is using modern AF that they can not anticipate the shot.
I shoot leica. I also shoot with AF cameras. My Leica is film so I have to be more specific with my shots. My digital cameras are AF, but guess what I am still specific with my shots.
AF makes everything easier and faster. That’s the truth.
Anticipating and waiting for the “decisive moment” and autofocus does not have to be two separate things. They can coexist.
I do not understand why those that prefer to use manual focus use the point of anticipating the shot as if that skill is only limited to manual focus.
I shoot leica. I also shoot with AF cameras. My Leica is film so I have to be more specific with my shots. My digital cameras are AF, but guess what I am still specific with my shots.
AF makes everything easier and faster. That’s the truth.
Anticipating and waiting for the “decisive moment” and autofocus does not have to be two separate things. They can coexist.
I do not understand why those that prefer to use manual focus use the point of anticipating the shot as if that skill is only limited to manual focus.
peterm1
Veteran
Beemermark, I agree that if I were to shoot birds in flight I would prefocus - probably at infinity, and then shoot accordingly, probably using continuous shooting to maximize my chances of getting a shot well framed.
But my comments on the problems with AF in this situation were more about the issues one might expect if relying upon AF in that situation. I definitely recall reading somewhere the issue as I described it in my post and seeing a shot demonstrating the sharp wing tip and slightly OOF head. (Of course this implies a wide open aperture which I suppose would only be needed in dim lighting and maybe not even then with modern high ISO camera sensors......????). I was not suggesting it's how I would prefer to shoot though.
I do not think the following article is the one I referred to though in it the author discusses the same issue using Nikon Group Area AF mode (near the bottom of the page).
https://luminescentphoto.com/blog/2018/03/12/focus-settings-for-birds-in-flight/
AlexBG
Well-known
This so true. Bellamy said it about a zeiss rangefinder last week being a negative. We live in a world where nearly everything has batteries.
Fraser
Well-known
No downsides to AF if its a decent body and you can use it properly.
Beemermark
Veteran
Interesting article. I've tried the various AF modes on my D750 and some work some of the time. But then the issues becomes trying to change AF modes in a hurry. Maybe it's my age but I can never seem to hit the right buttons to select the right combination at the right time. Simple seems easier to manual focus. Taken with a 150~600 Tamron AF in manual. There are times when AF comes in handy, mostly single focus point on a stationary subject. And for people who have mastered all the different AF modes and get great action shots, I say God bless them. It's just not me.
Ste_S
Well-known
I can't see how this is different to some manual focus cameras, especially rangefinders? You're putting the patch over the thing you want in focus and then recomposing.
peterm1
Veteran
"But then the issues becomes trying to change AF modes in a hurry. Maybe it's my age but I can never seem to hit the right buttons to select the right combination at the right time. Simple seems easier to manual focus."
Same here Beemermark. Getting old is a b#tch.
Which is another reason why I too tend to stick to manual focusing (usually with vintage MF lenses) or if I feel I want to use AF for some reason (perhaps I am feeling lazy on the day), I pretty much only use central focus point, single shot. About the only time I have only AF lenses with me, is when I am on holidays and it is impractical to carry lots of equipment. I then tend to use the camera mainly in AF mode (as the shooting I do on holidays tends to be of a different type than when I am at home and somehow seems to favor AF more than I otherwise would find acceptable). And occasionally when the situation demands it I will turn off AF and use the same lens in MF mode. At home the ratio of MF to AF shooting is the other way around.
Dogman
Veteran
My eyesight is pretty poor these days. Lots of vision issues--early cataracts, large floaters, macular wrinkles and some macular degeneration. While I'm actually very good at composition and framing I need AF in cameras. Even though I've shot sports with manual focus lenses when I was a newspaper shooter, I was never as fast or as accurate as any of the AF cameras I've ever used.
Years ago when I was using AF Canon film cameras, I experimented with letting the camera choose the subject. I went to a local area known for birdlife and, using a 400mm Canon lens, I set the camera so all sensors were active and let it pick where to focus. Admittedly, the birds in flight didn't have a lot of background distractions but it was amazing how the camera could focus on a bird and follow its movements through the air from one position to another. Almost everything was in focus. I was never able to do that with manual focus without missing focus on about 90% of my shots. And that was old AF technology.
Years ago when I was using AF Canon film cameras, I experimented with letting the camera choose the subject. I went to a local area known for birdlife and, using a 400mm Canon lens, I set the camera so all sensors were active and let it pick where to focus. Admittedly, the birds in flight didn't have a lot of background distractions but it was amazing how the camera could focus on a bird and follow its movements through the air from one position to another. Almost everything was in focus. I was never able to do that with manual focus without missing focus on about 90% of my shots. And that was old AF technology.