emraphoto
Veteran
Damned if you do, damned if you don't buddy.
What do M Monochrom reviews say about the reviewers?
- Thread starter Dante_Stella
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Damned if you do, damned if you don't buddy.
emraphoto
Veteran
There is something that I salute about all the internet photo phenoms. That is the 'do' part of the equation. I learnt early on to surround myself with the 'do' crowd as they motivate me as well as constantly cement the thinking I need going on in my head 24/7. You can do whatever you want. Just 'do' instead of talking about it.
semilog
curmudgeonly optimist
Um, because Rodinal is a crap developer for small-format negatives?
>>> 😛 <<<
giellaleafapmu
Well-known
Reading this thread I start wondering: what do you guys really espect from a review. I mean, are you especting to read whether a camera is good or bad? I doubt there is any really bad camera in the market now, at least not a professional camera. Are you especting to know whether it will make your pictures better of worst? Of course unless you are trading an F for a D4 and you are in sport photography it will not make any difference. Maybe if you sell your pictures some client might take you more seriously but that's it. So reviewer usually go to the little difference. If you buy a camera like the Monochrom which lack many features of a point and shot you are at least hoping that there is some small diference in the rendering of something when you get b/w pictures, so the reviewers get to than. "It resolvs 20% more lines in this wavelength than a similar sensor with AA filter". Do I care? No, but then I don't read Monochrom review other than...ok, I do read these review but I don't take them seriously. Is it possible that a Ricoh costing a fraction of the price get to the same result? Maybe, but if you are fine with a Ricoh maybe you shouldn't really take seriously Puts' reviews. I wouldn't be that harsh to reviewers who are doing just what probably people reading reviews espect: nitpicking on details. Where I have some problems, both with reviews and with company documents, is the lack of a lot of informations. Does a Samsung EX2F come with a charger? Nobody knows! What is the code of the associeated viewfinder? This can be known but...woooofh, it's really well hidden in documents. How is the manual focusing of a most autofocus cameras? Nobody knows or care to write. This is annoying but then it is where this and a few other forums come into play with nice people explaining those things.
GLF
GLF
CaptZoom
Established
Thank you.
CaptZoom
Established
There is a recent trend in camera review of talking about handling of the camera and the ergonomics which are two things that are quite valuable for me. Resolution, high ISO noise, features not related to taking photographs are pretty much useless for me. In the case of M cameras, there isn't much to talk about in thus regard. The layout hasn't changed since the M3. The only thing I'd like to see is the ISO button being placed close to the shutter release so I can change it without needing to use both hands.
wosim
Member
I take reviews as personal opinions, that can give me hints for what a product is made and good for, where are possible "quirks" and so on. Reviews - as Forum discussions - can broaden your view and - in the best case - leading you to better decisions.
The decision to buy a product, is my own and so, if the product doesn't meet my expectations, it's my and not the reviewers fault.
It might better, to keep this in mind:
"All you need to take the most beautiful pictures in the world
is a simple Praktika with a 50 mm lens.
Stop wasting your time talking cameras, and go take pictures!"
The decision to buy a product, is my own and so, if the product doesn't meet my expectations, it's my and not the reviewers fault.
It might better, to keep this in mind:
"All you need to take the most beautiful pictures in the world
is a simple Praktika with a 50 mm lens.
Stop wasting your time talking cameras, and go take pictures!"
Hans Vree
Are you guys really fighting over a camera?
leicashot
Well-known
People are criticising reviewers because they like a camera that obviously people want to hate for whatever reasons.
Everyone's an expert on RFF.
leicashot
Well-known
I'm getting tired of people always thinking they can do better and so quick to criticise.....summary: The Leica M Monochrom - the camera people (who don't have one) love to hate, it is that good :bang:😀
icebear
Veteran
Thanks for posting the links above, Kristian.
Looking at Trent Parke's bw work, I couldn't care less of the equipment he used.
I have no clue if there is any information about what he is using but I simply don't care.
This is exemplary for what many on the web complaining either about Leica, about reviewers or about the Monochrom completely forget: It is about the result and not the equipment.
Even you have the M3 (his body serial #) used by HCB, you will not take his pictures.
leicashot
Well-known
Trent worked with Leica M film cameras and most recently he did a lot of work with only a 28mm lens. He has amazing vision and us Aussies are proud to have him in Magnum 😎
Dante_Stella
Rex canum cattorumque
I'm sorry that this has devolved into such an MM love fest/hate fest. My comments on reviewers were prompted by this:
But I don't see the critical (in the "important" sense) discussion of whether and how you can change the color rendition - which is a very important part of organized black and white technique - and has been for over a century. Maybe it's not important to street shooting, but it is very important to scenic pictures and pictures of people. If your sole option to raise the reds (for example, to de-emphasize blemishes) is an 8x red filter that will knock your ISO down 3 stops and degrade image-plane sharpness with non APO lenses, it would be useful to know. Likewise, whether it's necessary to use even stronger filteration than that to push things to behave like TMY with a red filter.
I know these are pretty dry technical issues, but some people choose one camera over another based on considerations other than money or availability. Certainly, there are people who talk themselves out of things on that basis, but if you do have the means, accusations like that are insulting - and poor advocacy.
Dante
- I am looking at the MM and M240, and money is no object. I shoot primarily b/w with medium format equipment. A 6x4.5 is the smallest of these, and the MM is on the cusp of having the same amount of usable data.
- We are almost two months past the "seeding" of Leica bloggers with cameras.
- Some users have put out some good work, but the people who do reviews for a living have not been showcasing the camera's abilities very well.
- There are no performance proof DNGs released by Leica, let alone that provide an M9 DNG as a reference. If these existed, a lot of people in my position would not even bother looking at reviews. We would instead work out for ourselves whether the MM worked or whether a color conversion was better.
- We have published sensitivity charts from Leica that indicate peaking in the yellow-green area and relatively low response to red light. This is borne out by scores of published user photos that look like they were shot with a #11 filter (and in some cases "overdeveloped"). This is sharp for architecture but unflattering for most humans (save, say, for toddlers with perfect skin).
- In the meantime, Leica releases a new body whose spatial resolution is 24mp - which is in the neighborhood of what the MM is estimated to resolve (compared to a Bayer sensor). The ISO sensititivity is very comparable (particularly if you had to add a filter to the MM). This camera has other palpable improvements, not the least of which are battery life and a much more sophisticated processor.
But I don't see the critical (in the "important" sense) discussion of whether and how you can change the color rendition - which is a very important part of organized black and white technique - and has been for over a century. Maybe it's not important to street shooting, but it is very important to scenic pictures and pictures of people. If your sole option to raise the reds (for example, to de-emphasize blemishes) is an 8x red filter that will knock your ISO down 3 stops and degrade image-plane sharpness with non APO lenses, it would be useful to know. Likewise, whether it's necessary to use even stronger filteration than that to push things to behave like TMY with a red filter.
I know these are pretty dry technical issues, but some people choose one camera over another based on considerations other than money or availability. Certainly, there are people who talk themselves out of things on that basis, but if you do have the means, accusations like that are insulting - and poor advocacy.
Dante
Spoken from personal experience of being an idiot or dealing with other idiots, this is usually a sign that they aren't worth listening to. Obviously, there are some exceptions.
Enjoy your camera and feel good about doing the one thing that counts in photography... making images. I know you will anyway.
Hosermage
Well-known
Perhaps what many RFF'ers want is a Monochrom review by a BW photographer for BW photographers, but that's plainly not what most MM reviews' intentions, and maybe that's why they're coming off as not as convincing. They must serve their target audiences.
I don't know how much it'll be to rent the MM for a weekend or something, but how about just let everyone, who cares, to chip in and have a respected person (maybe even the OP?) to spend some time to do a proper review for RFF? Whoever chip in can also make a request for things they want to find out. Then, we'll find out whether people really cared enough to pay for a review, and if they're not, then they really shouldn't complain about reviews that they get for free. And, if the reviews actually happens, then we'll all get to find out how MM can really affect, or be worth it to, the change in workflow.
I don't know how much it'll be to rent the MM for a weekend or something, but how about just let everyone, who cares, to chip in and have a respected person (maybe even the OP?) to spend some time to do a proper review for RFF? Whoever chip in can also make a request for things they want to find out. Then, we'll find out whether people really cared enough to pay for a review, and if they're not, then they really shouldn't complain about reviews that they get for free. And, if the reviews actually happens, then we'll all get to find out how MM can really affect, or be worth it to, the change in workflow.
icebear
Veteran
Hello Dante,
Leica is offering Monochrom workshops where specifically the comparison of the Monochrom vs BW conversions from the M9 will be covered/discussed. And how to get the most out of the MM.
I do consider getting one and to make sure it is the right decision or not, I signed up. I'm not sure, if you have a chance for participation in one of these close to where you are. You might get all the answers your are looking for first hand and can shoot it bringing your own SD card. So you have plenty of time to play around with your own shots in post processing afterwards.
Dante_Stella
Rex canum cattorumque
Thanks for the heads-up, Icebear. That's a step in the right direction - now the tough thing is fitting that into my schedule this month!
Dante
Dante
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