What I want from a d-RF

A 30x40 print from a 12mp file is less than 90dpi (I think?), the shirt I’m wearing at the moment has a higher count than that and I can clearly see the individual threads. If such a print were made accurately I could see the individual pixels, if I could not see the pixels it would be a product of a computer not a camera, I am not convinced sorry
 
Sparrow said:
Two years ago I came to the conclusion that to preserve it’s RF nature in use, what I needed was a camera with a manual interface (focus and exposure), a full frame 135 sensor to keep the FOV and to allow for 12x18” prints at 400dpi some 30-35mp of file size.

I still hold that view. Am I being unreasonable?

That depends on what you consider "reasonable." If you mean "practical," well -- SLR cameras sell in much higher volumes than RF cameras, so manufacturers tend to concentrate their R&D budgets in the SLR sector. As a result, innovations tend to occur first in the DSLR sector.

So, how many DSLR cameras are available right now that incorporate all the features you want? Um, exactly two, they're both from the same manufacturer (Canon) and they're both at the top of their respective price ranges. (Even these don't have the 35-mp pixel count you've convinced yourself is necessary, so let's leave that for the second part of this answer.)

Back to the two Canons: Although they have good reputations, and photographers seem to aspire to them, that hasn't been enough to induce any other manufacturer to take the same route. And although online forums suggest that many photographers want them, the fact is that the majority wind up buying something else, either another Canon model or another manufacturer's camera.

RF cameras are always more expensive than their SLR equivalents because of the complexity of an optical rangefinder and the greater precision required to assemble them, plus the fact that since they sell in smaller numbers, the manufacturer can't expect to "make it up on volume." So, my guess is that the type of camera you describe would cost something just under $10,000 (the cost of a top-of-the-line Canon EOS plus a "rangefinder premium" to cover the cost of the RF subsystem, R&D costs, and lower volume.)

Is that a reasonable expectation? Well, Canon has good business judgment and plenty of development funds, and they're in business to make money; I suspect that if they felt such a camera would sell, they would be making it already.


Am I misunderstanding the maths? Can 10 or 12mp really be as good as a 40mp scan from a negative?

You're not so much misunderstanding the maths as trying to compare apples and oranges. One of the key reasons that negatives need very high scan resolutions is to avoid the effects of grain aliasing, the interaction between film-grain edges and scanner-pixel edges that causes a scan to look much coarser-grained than a wet print. (This probably accounts for most of what your kids are seeing when they distinguish between the higher- and lower-resolution scans.)

A direct digital image doesn't have this problem, and also doesn't incur further "generational losses" from the scanner's film holder, cover glass, mirror, lens, and other analog elements that are involved in the transfer of image data from the negative to the digital file.

In other words, all other things being equal, a digital file made directly from the image cast by the camera lens is much more faithful to the original scene than a file that has had to go through the long chain of camera lens > film > developing process > scanning process. An image scanned from a negative requires much higher scan resolution to compensate for this loss in fidelity.

On the output side, the extra pixels of a film scan don't always translate into better printed results because there's no common printing process that reproduces your digital file pixel-for-pixel. Inkjet printers form their image by making up overlapping patterns of ink droplets that blur the pixel boundaries; dye-sublimation printers use a gaseous diffusion process that does the same; and so does printing-press reproduction, in which the image is formed of overlapping screen patterns called rosettes.

The effect of all this -- plus the fact that you're evaluating the output with a wet, jiggly, imprecise little blob of jelly called the human eyeball -- is that there's not much demonstrable benefit in sending your printing device more than 300 output pixels per inch, and most people are quite satisfied with the overall appearance of prints made with 200 output pixels per inch, or even less for larger prints that are seen from long distances. (I can tell you from experience that a 6-megapixel digicam image makes a perfectly acceptable billboard.)

So, if you're routinely making 20 x 30 prints which people are going to examine at close reading distance -- in-store display posters, for example -- then yes, you are going to need a lot more than 10 megapixels, which is why commercial photographers are willing to spend $30,000-plus for those 39-megapixel digital backs.

But the vast majority of us seldom make prints that large -- and for smaller prints, a camera with a lower pixel count produces just as good a final image, because any "extra" pixels are simply thrown away by the printing process.

So, a very common compromise is to buy and use a digital camera that you can afford and that generates enough image data to meet most of your needs. For the occasional huge, highly-detailed print, it's more cost-effective to keep a medium- or large-format film camera around than to buy a digital back that has capabilities you'll hardly ever use (and is much bulkier and less convenient to use than a more compact digital camera.)

Even the most determined film zealots don't use 8 x 10 sheet film for everything -- that's why there have always been so many camera sizes and film formats.

It's worth reminding ourselves occasionally that image quality isn't the same as picture quality, and that a picture you got with your small, fast-operating camera is always going to be better than the one you missed while setting up your big, cumbersome large-format camera. The same goes for digital as well as film.
 
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Sparrow said:
Two years ago I came to the conclusion that to preserve it’s RF nature in use, what I needed was a camera with a manual interface (focus and exposure), a full frame 135 sensor to keep the FOV and to allow for 12x18” prints at 400dpi some 30-35mp of file size.

I still hold that view. Am I being unreasonable? Am I misunderstanding the maths? Can 10 or 12mp really be as good as a 40mp scan from a negative?

Opinions please

I am waiting patiently for such a camera. I do think 10-12 MP can as good or better than a 40 MP film scan. I believe that in either case, the photographer is more important. So I would be happy with both.
 
Sparrow said:
A 30x40 print from a 12mp file is less than 90dpi (I think?), the shirt I’m wearing at the moment has a higher count than that and I can clearly see the individual threads. If such a print were made accurately I could see the individual pixels, if I could not see the pixels it would be a product of a computer not a camera, I am not convinced sorry

I've seen an exhibition of portraits with prints as big as doors. These were from digital captures on 6mP, non-"full frame" sensors. The prints were of the RA-4 type printed using those large format laser-type printers which expose the paper with tiny pencils of light, in much the same way as an ink-jet printer disperses ink. I can tell you that the prints had full detail in them: skin pores, hair strands, and even the tiny blood vessels on the eyeballs were clearly visible. I am sure that some resizing, interpolation, and sharpening were employed at some late stage before the files were printed, but then again, some form of post-capture editing (should it be 'digital developing'?) is a fact of life with almost every type of digital image.

I agree with JLW: 6mP is really sufficient for many purposes. Large prints aren't always required. And when needed, there are software which can make this possible. I believe that there is no point in avoiding PP software- it is inevitable that the file must be edited in terms of colour, tonal values, contrast, size, and sharpening for it to produce a good final image, whether it's for viewing on a monitor, or for an album print, a large display print, or even a billboard. There's no point in insisting that the camera must be able to do this
as it captures the image or stores the file. That would be like forcing a film camera to develop, colour correct, and print the picture when its shutter button is pressed.

High pixel count isn't all that it takes. The captured file's quality is also determined by how the digital camera processes and stores the file. Some cameras just do it better than others. I once had a photo printed to billboard size ( the actual print dot pitch for billboards is really lower) from a capture which was only 3mP. I had the camera (Canon 300D) set to medium resolution after being told that the pictures were to be used only for flyers. Then the client suddenly found a sponsor to produce a billboard and the 'tiny' 3mP files went to press.

Three to 6 mP often does work which I couldn't do with 35mm captures. Note that I remain a film fanatic. It's just that I've seen plenty of these as magazine covers or advertising illustrations whose quality in the film world can only be delivered by medium format film.


Jay
 
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If that is the case are we looking at an image that is an artefact of a computer rather than light? If a computer takes a 3mm pixel and melts it to form the image of reality that convinces you then the art, the “hand of man” is lost to the process and we are no longer in control of the medium.
I find that idea disturbing.
 
Stewart: That's a philosophical question and my own POV is that "disturbing" is a strong term, but I understand. OTOH, I can think of an elargement as somewhat distrubing and "unpure" as opposed to a contact print. Not analogous, I know, but you get my drift. In a sense the computer is just another tool for the final result, just as is an enlarger.

ZorkiKat said:
<snip>The captured file's quality is also determined by how the digital camera processes and stores the file. Some cameras just do it better than others. <snip>
Jay

Jay, I wholly agree, but what seems to be a mystery is how this occurs. Certain cameras have performance that seems to be beyond what we "know" the sensor capabilities are. Colour fidelity, contrast, dynamic range, etc., not just pixel count. This seems to be almost a black art. The sad thing, to me, is that whereas a roll or sheet of film can be purchased, tested and shot relatively cheaply, changing the sensor and in-camera software is not as facile.
 
'I agree with JLW: 6mP is really sufficient for many purposes. Large prints aren't always required. And when needed, there are software which can make this possible."

Which is why I am looking forward to checking out the forthcoming Nikon D40 as my first 'serious' digital camera. Tiny compared to other DSLR's, impressive features, high ISO for low light, and not not a lot of $.

As much as I like film there is no doubt where the future is going. My Voigtlander. Zorki, and Nikon FM2 are still going to be heavily used in the next few years, but I won't be left behind.

e3
 
Sparrow said:
If that is the case are we looking at an image that is an artefact of a computer rather than light? If a computer takes a 3mm pixel and melts it to form the image of reality that convinces you then the art, the “hand of man” is lost to the process and we are no longer in control of the medium.
I find that idea disturbing.

A computer, or its software, will not convert a "3mm pixel and melt it" by itself unless a human hand controlled by a human mind commands it to do so. Another way to look at it is by considering the computer a tool just like any other: they are incapable of creation by themselves alone. Anything which forms without human intervention is accidental. Creation is never accidental- it is a deliberate, consciously willed act which requires control over the tool and process employed.

The mind sets the goal of creation. It makes the hands wield the necessary tools and tells them how to use these tools in order to realise the objective. These remain true, whether this same mind decides to use a computer or a brush to realise the objective.
Jay
 
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Trius said:
Jay, I wholly agree, but what seems to be a mystery is how this occurs. Certain cameras have performance that seems to be beyond what we "know" the sensor capabilities are. Colour fidelity, contrast, dynamic range, etc., not just pixel count. This seems to be almost a black art. The sad thing, to me, is that whereas a roll or sheet of film can be purchased, tested and shot relatively cheaply, changing the sensor and in-camera software is not as facile.

It's really a hardware/firmware/software issue. It's what goes into these digital cameras which account for the sort or quality of images they produce.

I was weaned on - my initial forays into the digital darkside were through -compact digicams like Kodak's Easyshare cameras or Canon's G series cameras. The notion of how digital images could be were based on what I got from these devices. When I got my first "real" DSLR camera (the Fuji S2 pro), the first thing I noticed was that this expensive camera seemed to make 'inferior' pictures compared to those made by the digi-compacts.

The S2's files looked unsharp, flat, and off-coloured. I wondered why this $2500 (it s price then) camera made such "crappy" pictures. Then it dawned on me that this was due to what the camera did to the captured information as it saved them.

Inexpensive digicams do a lot of on-board processing as it saves the image files. Their software adjusts the colour, white point, contrast, and sharpness- correcting them to a degree which the manufacturer deemed "correct". Correctness in these cases meant that the resulting files would produce images which would look reasonably sharp, bright, and snappy when viewed onscreen or else printed on paper. Such onboard adjustments also meant that whatever correction applied becomes permanent, leaving little for further post-process improvements. Any PP improvement will just work on what's there- and any further PP action would often just make artefacts more obvious.
Sharpening would enhance jaggies, contrast and brightness adjustments would cause burnt highlights, etc.

The more advanced cameras on the other hand will do very little to the capture files. When viewed, these files would look dull, flat, and unsharp. The makers would often assume that the users of such advanced equipment would apply the necessary adjustments in post processing. This is the essence of using the camera's RAW settings; however, even when the capture files are saved as JPGs, the files would still exhibit a lot of potential for further PP improvement without the consequences often encountered with files from cheaper or lesser digicams.

Even amongst the advanced DSLRs, the quality tends to vary. When I first got
my Canon DSLRs (300D and then 350D), I thought that these advanced amateur models made better images than the professional S2. Then lately, I've been using the S2 again. I've realised that their flatter images edited better.

There is a piece by M. Johnson (?) in the Luminous Landscape site which
said something to the same effect. It said that the captured files were akin to music scores rather than the music itself; it's still up to the photographer to use PP editing in order to make the picture 'sing'.

Jay
 
Jay
That’s a persuasive argument and I can see that may be the case, perhaps for me its the integrity or fidelity of the image that’s the important thing and I’m looking for a image of reality that’s not possible, if I had to make money from it I’m sure I’d be an early adopter as it is I can afford to have “artistic principals”. I want reality from photography I can create an image in many media, that’s my day job, but I want my photos to be as true as I can make them………..or maybe I’m just an old Ludite who can’t face the future.
 
Ah, but what photograph really has fidelity? 🙂

I know what you mean, mucking about with an image too much on a computer just feels wrong and inauthentic. But it's really just a modern form of post-processing, there's nothing intrinsically wrong about it artistically. Personally, I do no more than a bit of sharpening and some level adjustment, maybe a bit of cropping, and b&w conversion. I don't upsize to make big prints, I print well within the 6MP resolution of my R-D1 and never go bigger than A4. But that's not just out of a desire to be authentic, it's also because I'm useless at Photoshoppery 🙂

Ian
 
Well I use Photoshop professionally and have for many years now so I know how to cheat if I want to, way more than I can in the darkroom
I would love to go fully digital but I’m trying not to compromise the Image by doing so, perhaps I’m asking “what is digital reality”
 
Hi Stewart,

Sparrow said:
Well I use Photoshop professionally and have for many years now so I know how to cheat if I want to, way more than I can in the darkroom
Maybe, then, your list is motivated by something else than mere technical factors.

As you are familiar with digital image manipulation, your interest in film-based photography apparently comes about because it conveys a sense of authenticity and unalteredness. Maybe that's why set such high stakes for a digital camera that would seem acceptable to you, precisely because there is no camera on the market that does what you think a digital camera should do.

Philipp
 
Hi Philipp
That’s an interesting observation, I’m not actually banging an analogue drum here, but you have touched on the core of it, I realise what I’m asking is at what point has digital the same integrity as film has had in the past, or is the consensus that point is past
 
Film never was as sound as most people believe. Only the negative had some degree of integrity, and even the neg was just as shot of a relaity one could have faked. Whether the faking starts before or after the shutter is pressed is of no consequence IMO.
 
RML said:
Film never was as sound as most people believe. Only the negative had some degree of integrity, and even the neg was just as shot of a relaity one could have faked. Whether the faking starts before or after the shutter is pressed is of no consequence IMO.

One reason I like slide film. Almost all my family and friend color stuff goes on slides-and my preferred viewing is on a light table. Most comparisons with digital omit mention that the scanner may not be up to par.

Great thread-it gives me a lot to consider.
 
RML said:
Film never was as sound as most people believe. Only the negative had some degree of integrity, and even the neg was just as shot of a relaity one could have faked. Whether the faking starts before or after the shutter is pressed is of no consequence IMO.

No I don’t agree, if I have integrity then so do the pictures I publish, that integrity however has to be based on a consensus view of what reality in photography is
 
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Remy: I know what you're saying, but I disagree for the most. Faking a scene is pretty rare other than in fashion and product photography, where it is understood to be staged and is expected. In any event, an original film negative interpreted through normal/darkroom means is very different and is just that, and interpretation meant to express the photographer's vision and response/feeling to the scene. That is not to say that the same can't be said of digital workflow, but somehow I find the line between interpretation and "faking" much harder to discern. I really don't know why this is, but for me it just is.

But back to the original question, most digital work I see is qualitatively different than film work. When so many people hoped that the M8 would be "more filmlike" than other digital cameras, it says something.
 
Trius
So would you say film imposed its own integrity by its limitations, and digital requires the photographer to impose that integrity on his work? So a 6x9 print at 10mp is reality but the same file at 12x18 is not because it requires intervention of some sort to make it palatable
 
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