colker
Well-known
As I said: film cameras are for enthusiasts. Professionals cannot use film on most of their jobs. Timelines and clients won´t allow for that. Pros need the digital workflow.
What if Nikon (and Canon) released new RF FILM cameras (and lenses)?
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As I said: film cameras are for enthusiasts. Professionals cannot use film on most of their jobs. Timelines and clients won´t allow for that. Pros need the digital workflow.
markjwyatt
Well-known
I looked at that. But younger people do not know film. They know "digital photography", and the "vintage", umm... analog is "analog photography". The fact that "film photography" is flat, but "analog photography" is showing recent (nascent) growth implies that most of the new interest coming from younger people.
markjwyatt
Well-known
I suspect some significant percentage (maybe 5-10%, maybe more?) of photojournalism comes from ordinary people's iPhones.
colker
Well-known
That´s why it is worth investing in film photography,
aizan
Veteran
The original price of the Voigtlander Bessaflex in 2003 was $300. Adjusted for inflation that's about $410, but they sell new for $650. It's not one of the highly sought after SLRs because it's kind of cheap feeling, but they're pretty rare.
More along the lines of a well-built camera is the Nikon F3. There are a lot more of these, and you can get one that's new in box for about $800. The Nikon FM3A is more recent, less common, and has a more sophisticated shutter, and those go for $1000. Its original price was $820 in 2001, or about $1170 in today's dollars. The Olympus OM-4 goes for about $900 NIB.
So the question is can Cosina or some other company make a high quality SLR for about $1000 and still make a profit? I'm thinking it is. I bet amateurs would even pay up to $1500–$2000 for it as an "investment."
colker
Well-known
Exactly. Yes.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
Cosina won't and probably can't make a good camera that will serve as an "investment" into the craft, for $2000. They could sell you an FM10 for an inflated price though.
I think the camera manufacturers know that there are millions of reliable 35mm bodies out there to be had for nothing. They can't compete with their used gear that is reliable. You can buy 5 Pentax Spotmatic bodies for $100 if you shop around and at least one of them is going to work perfectly. I know in my local brick and mortar shop there are many working 35mm bodies with lenses, ready to go. Most for $100 or less and they sit on the shelf not being purchased. I don't call that resurging interest. In fact, I'm the guy that purchases some of that used gear but I wouldn't count me as a force in the new interest in film cameras. So, in the 6th most populous city in the United States, we are immune from this new interest in film it would seem. There is a cadre of film photographers such as myself and a few other die hard but we aren't the hordes of hipsters breaking down the doors of Urban Outfitters for whatever new old film cameras they have inflated the price on.
I think it would be better policy for the big manufacturers to accept the camera bodies that all these new users have bought at yard sales, repair them, CLA them and then "certify" them with a warranty on parts and service. Like buying a factory certified Mercedes-Benz, you get a camera that works like new and is covered by warranty from the company that made it. Because Sover has a 15 month waiting list for making an F2 perfect but can't offer a longer warranty like Nikon could. Now THAT service could be the gateway for a new generation of analog shooters.
One thing that has to be taken into account is generational interest. I grew up with film photography. Mine is the last generation to do so with no digital alternative. The Simpsons generation and later has grown up with digital capture available most of their whole lives. So with milennials we all have to be aware that they may just think analog photography is cool but not enough to keep it going. Film production is not cheap and it is a process that relies on economy of scale of use and sales, in order to survive. This goes for all labs as well. Chemistry does not keep so developing runs are done only when large batches of film come in otherwise expensive chemistry gets wasted. All the parts of this industry are necessary and have to work well in order for it to survive. Can't get a used or new camera working? It gets shelved along with interest. Customer uses their phone. Can't find a place to get film developed? Camera gets shelved along with interest. Customer uses their phone. Can't find film conveniently? Camera gets shelved along with interest. Wash, rinse, repeat. Just because it has been there all your life does not mean it is going to continue to be there in spite of your optimism.
Phil Forrest
I think the camera manufacturers know that there are millions of reliable 35mm bodies out there to be had for nothing. They can't compete with their used gear that is reliable. You can buy 5 Pentax Spotmatic bodies for $100 if you shop around and at least one of them is going to work perfectly. I know in my local brick and mortar shop there are many working 35mm bodies with lenses, ready to go. Most for $100 or less and they sit on the shelf not being purchased. I don't call that resurging interest. In fact, I'm the guy that purchases some of that used gear but I wouldn't count me as a force in the new interest in film cameras. So, in the 6th most populous city in the United States, we are immune from this new interest in film it would seem. There is a cadre of film photographers such as myself and a few other die hard but we aren't the hordes of hipsters breaking down the doors of Urban Outfitters for whatever new old film cameras they have inflated the price on.
I think it would be better policy for the big manufacturers to accept the camera bodies that all these new users have bought at yard sales, repair them, CLA them and then "certify" them with a warranty on parts and service. Like buying a factory certified Mercedes-Benz, you get a camera that works like new and is covered by warranty from the company that made it. Because Sover has a 15 month waiting list for making an F2 perfect but can't offer a longer warranty like Nikon could. Now THAT service could be the gateway for a new generation of analog shooters.
One thing that has to be taken into account is generational interest. I grew up with film photography. Mine is the last generation to do so with no digital alternative. The Simpsons generation and later has grown up with digital capture available most of their whole lives. So with milennials we all have to be aware that they may just think analog photography is cool but not enough to keep it going. Film production is not cheap and it is a process that relies on economy of scale of use and sales, in order to survive. This goes for all labs as well. Chemistry does not keep so developing runs are done only when large batches of film come in otherwise expensive chemistry gets wasted. All the parts of this industry are necessary and have to work well in order for it to survive. Can't get a used or new camera working? It gets shelved along with interest. Customer uses their phone. Can't find a place to get film developed? Camera gets shelved along with interest. Customer uses their phone. Can't find film conveniently? Camera gets shelved along with interest. Wash, rinse, repeat. Just because it has been there all your life does not mean it is going to continue to be there in spite of your optimism.
Phil Forrest
dtcls100
Well-known
I very much doubt that anyone could produce a quality film camera of the level of yesteryear at an attractive pricepoint and still make a profit. There are still a ton of quality used cameras for sale that sell for very little. Aside from the film enthusiasts (including myself) who frequent this and similar websites, who represent a very small segment of the population, there are very few other people who would even consider buying a film camera, let alone a new film camera. For example, how many people are buying a new Nikon F6 (which is still being manufactured in limited quantities from time to time) at $2,400, as opposed to buying one used (and in excellent condition) for $750-$1,000?
Rather than focusing on new film camera manufacture, it would perhaps make sense for a company to start manufacturing replacement parts for older film cameras, including using 3D printing techniques. I don't know the technical feasibility of this, but perhaps some company could also arrange for the printing/manufacturing some replacement circuit boards for older electronic film cameras as well, assuming the original manufacturers kept the circuit plans and are willing to share or sell them. There appear to be quite a few manufacturers of flexible circuit boards in countries like China, who could presumably print out new flexible circuit boards at a somewhat reasonable price. The startup costs of such a business would presumably be considerably less than the idea of developing and manufacturing entirely new film cameras. I could see this as possibly being a viable business -- akin to some companies selling replacement outer leatherette covers for a variety of vintage cameras.
Rather than focusing on new film camera manufacture, it would perhaps make sense for a company to start manufacturing replacement parts for older film cameras, including using 3D printing techniques. I don't know the technical feasibility of this, but perhaps some company could also arrange for the printing/manufacturing some replacement circuit boards for older electronic film cameras as well, assuming the original manufacturers kept the circuit plans and are willing to share or sell them. There appear to be quite a few manufacturers of flexible circuit boards in countries like China, who could presumably print out new flexible circuit boards at a somewhat reasonable price. The startup costs of such a business would presumably be considerably less than the idea of developing and manufacturing entirely new film cameras. I could see this as possibly being a viable business -- akin to some companies selling replacement outer leatherette covers for a variety of vintage cameras.
Livesteamer
Well-known
If Nikon (or somebody) could make a modern meter prism for a Nikon F I would be strongly tempted to buy one. My most modern camera is a Nikon N90s and it has an incredibly smart meter. I would love to have that meter, or something similar, in my old F. Joe
Probably a crazy idea.
Probably a crazy idea.
Mackinaw
Think Different
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That’s an interesting idea. A modern, meter prism that would fit onto an F. I’d be interested.
Jim B.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
That is a fun idea but the meters that came after the Nikon FA are part of an integrated circuit that controls the shutter itself. With the F and F2 you have to guess at the myriad of steps between stops on the shutter dial so you don't have the digital accuracy of a camera like the N90s. You're still looking at exposures that can get no closer than half a stop with regard to the shutter speed. As far as the aperture is concerned, the available meters for the F2 do a fantastic job of getting perfect exposures when the meters are properly calibrated, the lens aperture is clean and the shutter is in good shape.
Phil Forrest
Phil Forrest
colker
Well-known
That is wrong. Used camera prices have been rising steadily in the last couple years. I would buy a Summicron 5 yrs ago and it was 800 dollars. I gave up on the project. Now it´s 2 times more expensive.
The same rise or even more is seen on Rolleis, Hasselblads, Olympus, Plaubel, Contax, Mamyia.
These are facts. Numbers. Corporations deal in numbers: buyers, age of buyers, prices.. not on melancholic digressions about millions of cameras sitting on shelves covered w/ dust lamenting the end of film. That´s forum talk. New emulsions are released by the month. Film factories opened. Film cameras traded at increased prices. Wake up.
colker
Well-known
So why is Ferrania releasing film? Ilford? Tri x? Just to please a few people on a few forums? If new film is being sold then new cameras will be sold.
It won´t be another Nikon F. It will be another Nikon FM. It won´t be a classic late 50s meticulous remake. It will be a modern camera w/ electronics, plastic and every other cost measure. A camera made for young people w/ limited cash.. not for old camera collectors.
In the end.. no matter how clear i make it someone will come up shouting "I'm not listening! film is dead! I am not listening! Film is dead".
It´s much easier to repeat a false notion indefinitely than observe how fast things change.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
I'm awake, lighten up.
Please enlighten us all with these industry facts. And I challenge you to get an industry insider to tell us that things are as rosy as you and a couple others here are stating. Maybe ask our forum owner what his contacts say.
I recently sold two Mamiya 6 (modern) bodies with all the lenses and accessories available. I couldn't sell them for a high price in spite of them working perfectly, with near mint glass and including hard to find accessories. I got just under $3200 for the whole lot that I paid a lot more for in 2013.
As for your Summicron, what kind are you looking for? I'll find you a V.3 or older for $800 or less, easy. You're just not shopping around patiently and in the right places.
Phil Forrest
colker
Well-known
There won´t be an endless supply of cheap Hasselblads and Nikon F3 forever on ebay. Or cheap Mamyia MF.. wait: those mamyias 6 and 7 are expensive already.
Time to make new ones.
Time to make new ones.
colker
Well-known
Lighten? Me? I am light as a feather on this topic. I am just using the most simple clear logic based on camera sales and prices. I am not writing long convoluted posts based on notions that have no facts behind.
Prices kept rising on the past couple yrs. It already surpassed prices of a rerelease like w/ Zeiss Ikon. Cosina could sell new editons of those RFs, cheaper than actual prices on ebay, make some money and don´t even sweat so much. It will happen soon.
dtcls100
Well-known
Your logic is faulty. Film is not dead, but it is a niche product. While film use appears to be increasing, it is extremely unlikely that it will ever sell anywhere close to the volumes it sold in the 1990's or even the early 2000's. A person can go through a pretty decent amount of film with just one old working film camera. I go through about 40-50 rolls of 36 exposure 35mm film a year. However, this level of use won't support the resurrection of new film camera manufacturing, let alone at a reasonable price. Just look at some of the Kickstarter projects proposing new film cameras. The new proposed models are rudimentary junk compared to older film cameras, yet cost $500 or more. Building a new film camera comparable to the quality of many older film cameras would cost much more and then how many would be sold, particularly when you can get working copies of an Olympus OM-1 for $125, Nikon F3 for under $200, etc.? If it made economic and business sense, the major camera manufacturers would already be restarting their manufacture of film cameras, with sales of digital cameras falling due to cellphones. The camera manufacturers know a hell of a lot more about the business and technical aspects involved and they have decided not to do so.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
If Cosina, Nikon, Canon or Pentax bring out a completely new 35mm film body for general consumer use within the next 5 years, I will give you a working 35mm still or 16mm motion picture camera in my collection which is in good condition. I don't have any garbage either.
My long posts are quite factual as a matter of fact. Add to those facts that I have worked in this industry and have seen its decline since the mid-90s. I'm also not delusional.
Phil Forrest
My long posts are quite factual as a matter of fact. Add to those facts that I have worked in this industry and have seen its decline since the mid-90s. I'm also not delusional.
Phil Forrest
Jamie Pillers
Skeptic
I'm with you on this, Phil. If anything film-related is going to come along, its going to be Sony/Fuji/Panasonic engineers coming up with film emulation software that PERFECTLY mimics film.
Contarama
Well-known
Enthusiasts now are like they've always been....after about 50 rolls they buy a new model digital unit. Camera makers understand this all to well I bet. Just an opinion. 🙂
Leica and rangefinders? Different story but even that tale is changing.
Leica and rangefinders? Different story but even that tale is changing.
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