The demand is there due to short supply, but who will be there when the supply is overflowing? A company just can’t set up shop to make a few thousand cheap cameras. Anything you are proposing won’t be cheap. It won’t help anything. Old cameras are selling due to nostalgia.
css9450
Veteran
Try a Canon RF. Just as nice as a Leica (maybe even better than a Leica) but without the price increases. Seriously undervalued in today's market.
colker
Well-known
colker
Well-known
colker
Well-known
Just look at Bessa and Zeiss Ikon. If their prices used are higher than new, being fabricated 10yrs ago only.. then there is demand.
Leica is still selling new film Ms. According to the logic here Leica should have shut down. Yet they are selling 4k film cameras. What´s wrong w/ those buyers??? They should buy used!!
leicapixie
Well-known
The biggest problem with film read mechanical cameras with some electronics is the problem of future services!
When I was still servicing watches and timing instruments,
average age of repairers was 65...like me.
Very shortly after my (65) b'day i had a heart excitement
and was effectively retired..
The situation with cameras and lenses is identical..
We all know all the service people left.
Here in Toronto, Gerry has now stopped working.
Using my Leica cameras means I must look at New Jersey or Wetzlar,
for official work.
States its Sherry, DAG or Youxin, who by reports do stunning work.
Nikon or Canon do not have any service people geared to mechanical..
Is the M6 built cheaper?
Erwin Puts and Erik say no..but the exp.counter
in my M6TTL is faulty due to usage of "plastic" spring.
Paint peeled off shutter dial..Flare the big surprise.
Faulty M new models not funny.
My M3 1155...'1967, one of last production arrived without some parts,
in rangefinder. 3 signatures in warrant and final test..
It happens in hand built items, as did a critical screw in a Rolex Chronometer, missing.
Came with so called observatory test..
It would have been damaged in 1st few minutes, never mind real test..
Buy used and hope for best.
If it ain't broken, don't fix.
When I was still servicing watches and timing instruments,
average age of repairers was 65...like me.
Very shortly after my (65) b'day i had a heart excitement
and was effectively retired..
The situation with cameras and lenses is identical..
We all know all the service people left.
Here in Toronto, Gerry has now stopped working.
Using my Leica cameras means I must look at New Jersey or Wetzlar,
for official work.
States its Sherry, DAG or Youxin, who by reports do stunning work.
Nikon or Canon do not have any service people geared to mechanical..
Is the M6 built cheaper?
Erwin Puts and Erik say no..but the exp.counter
in my M6TTL is faulty due to usage of "plastic" spring.
Paint peeled off shutter dial..Flare the big surprise.
Faulty M new models not funny.
My M3 1155...'1967, one of last production arrived without some parts,
in rangefinder. 3 signatures in warrant and final test..
It happens in hand built items, as did a critical screw in a Rolex Chronometer, missing.
Came with so called observatory test..
It would have been damaged in 1st few minutes, never mind real test..
Buy used and hope for best.
If it ain't broken, don't fix.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
So if film is a niche product, sold to a niche market, why does that suggest there will be an increase in use of film outside that market? Simple transitive property here. A. B. C. But in this case, C doesn't fit if it conforms to A and B.
Most people don't want to think about making their images, they want to click and go. This is why point and shoot cameras dominated the 80s and 90s. The best selling film cameras ever were and are disposables.
So if most people just want to click a photo, share it with others and move on to the next thing, they have their phones. You're confusing haptics and YOUR lived experience as a photographer with what 40% of the population of the earth wants. Your arguments are fallacious because you have a combination of too much interest, too much nostalgia and too narrow a view of the greater economy. In decades prior, people only used film exclusively because they had to. Otherwise they needed to draw, paint or sculpt the subject.
I'm not saying at all that film is dead. I am saying that new production, quality film cameras from big manufacturers whose boards have to answer to investors will never get past considering it. Ie: if Fuji knew/knows so much, why do we see their increasing concentration on the digital line and not a dedicated 35mm film camera?
Phil Forrest
Most people don't want to think about making their images, they want to click and go. This is why point and shoot cameras dominated the 80s and 90s. The best selling film cameras ever were and are disposables.
So if most people just want to click a photo, share it with others and move on to the next thing, they have their phones. You're confusing haptics and YOUR lived experience as a photographer with what 40% of the population of the earth wants. Your arguments are fallacious because you have a combination of too much interest, too much nostalgia and too narrow a view of the greater economy. In decades prior, people only used film exclusively because they had to. Otherwise they needed to draw, paint or sculpt the subject.
I'm not saying at all that film is dead. I am saying that new production, quality film cameras from big manufacturers whose boards have to answer to investors will never get past considering it. Ie: if Fuji knew/knows so much, why do we see their increasing concentration on the digital line and not a dedicated 35mm film camera?
Phil Forrest
colker
Well-known
I would rather pay 4k on a new Leica M or maybe 1.5k on a new ZI than buy a used M6.
I like NEW cameras.
colker
Well-known
Young consumers.
Hip hop was once a niche musical market.
Anything adopted by an enthusiast bunch of youngsters has a huge chance to grow and when it happens in the major cultural centers the chance to expand worldwide is also huge. This is a basic rule.
css9450
Veteran
colker said:
So you'd like to pay 600-900 but would go as high as 4000 to avoid having to settle for a used camera? That's quite a price range.
Out to Lunch
Ventor
I live in a city with, at least 10 million inhabitants. There is a 35mm film revival but during the past ten years or so, the entire 35mm infrastructure was wiped-out. Today, there are not more than one handful of shops, mostly owned/managed by enthusiasts, that will develop and scan film. It's a small niche market for enthusiasts.
They are no longer made and not many people are selling theirs. This means that people are selling a few hundred at good prices and you are extrapolating the data to mean that there is big money to be made. I don’t think so. It’s not as easy as you think to pull this off. Leica is a luxury brand with boutique stores... that is how they pull off still making M film cameras. They are not relying on pure volume. They rely on myth and mystique.
aizan
Veteran
The niche for film is growing, especially among younger people. Go to a protest and there are film cameras everywhere. Will it grow enough for Canikon? Probably not. For Cosina, Zeiss, and new startups? I’m thinking yes.
Millennials’ and Gen Z’s tastes are influencing digital camera design in a distinctly filmic way, too. The big camera companies are in touch with what they want, even if it’s unrelated to film demand.
Millennials’ and Gen Z’s tastes are influencing digital camera design in a distinctly filmic way, too. The big camera companies are in touch with what they want, even if it’s unrelated to film demand.
colker
Well-known
I never said there was big money. I said it´s a niche market and today niche markets are part of the moving economy. Those markets also represent numbers.
Leica is a boutique store? Corporate giants can also have different business models and also have boutique stores. Diversifying, catering to different markets.. that´s how companies adapt to keep going.
You want a this or that kind of situation but something different is happening.
When young people adopt a consumer habit be it part of their creative lives, corporations pay attention because where young people is where things grow. If they don´t pay attention to youth´s consumer habits, companies die.
colker
Well-known
colker
Well-known
Yeah... but who needs shops? Buy everything on line. Sell on line. Develop at home. Send somewhere to be developed.
The old film life is not coming back. A new workflow w/a different audience is coming.
colker
Well-known
:bang::bang::bang::bang::bang:I said something entirely different.. completely different.
Hey. Film is dead. Ok? You won the internet.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
The last two rallies I went to, just last month, there was one photographer using a film camera at one (myself) and two at the second one (I was one of them.) I am no longer a reporter but I still canvas the crowd like I am one, looking for shots. I pay attention to what people are shooting with, especially if it's not a phone. There was ONE Leica digital at the second rally, owned by my old landlord.
Yes, Leica is built upon exclusivity and mystique. That is why they have overall low volume sales in comparison to companies such as Fuji, Sony and Nikon. Leica's prices reflect that low volume as well as create the exclusivity itself. Not very many people can afford a new digital Leica and one of the new lenses. Heck, most people can't afford anything by Leica, used or new. Leica abandoned working photographers and is now concentrating on selling the red dot to affluent people who would just as soon use their iphone as use a $7000 camera with a $9000 lens.
Phil Forrest
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
Out to Lunch
Ventor
Sure, just keep your head in the sand. Buy, sell and develop at home is a a reality that exists in your head, only. I'm done with this thread.
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