css9450
Veteran
The Bessa and ZI sell for high prices because they were made in relatively small quantities. How many F3s were made? They probably sold more F3s in a month than Cosina made in a decade.
Or its because of the rangefinder...
supply/demand is always the answer. But supply is not based solely on how many were made, it's how many are actually up for sale.
colker
Well-known
supply/demand is always the answer. But supply is not based solely on how many were made, it's how many are actually up for sale.
Every time i call on camera´s silly prices i get: supply and demand... as if it´s the law gravity.
Supply is easily manipulated.
There are artificially inflated prices in every market w/ investors backing off when price is far from value. I see it everyday in the photo market. Hasselblad Xpan prices? Silly. Hasselblad 500cm? Good value.
Sumarongi
Registered Vaudevillain
supply/demand is always the answer. But supply is not based solely on how many were made, it's how many are actually up for sale.
It's tickle-down economics, according to my teacher Prof. Hargreaves.
Whether a price is 'silly' or a 'good value' is entirely up the individual, of course.
colker
Well-known
I have a nice bridge to sell you... It´s good value. You want it. I am sure you will be happy w/ it and that´s all that matters: how you feel about it.
But in the case of cameras that aren`t made anymore, it could be true don`t you think?
X-Pan is a niche of a niche... a one of a kind. There were a lot more 500CM cameras made right?
Lots of 'silly' prices these buyers paid, what were they thinking??
The supply/demand equation is at it again, darnit!
The supply/demand equation is at it again, darnit!
colker
Well-known
I rationalize this thing in terms of original msrp. Cameras used to be priced based on their build quality and complexity. A Hasselblad 500 C or CM was very expensive due to it´s made in Sweden high quality. Lenses were Zeiss German made. Everything about the Hasselblad was the ne plus ultra of build quality. If you compare its actual prices then those CMs are a bargain. Same goes for Nikon F3.
You may want an xpan and decide to pay whatever they are charging today. No discussion. It does not make it good value but you need it and payed a silly price for it. You don´t have much choice if you really need that format.
It´s simple and objective.
peterm1
Veteran
Yep it would be fun........But why would they? Look what happened with the Nikon Df which was designed for the nostalgia market - and that was a digital camera. Film is fashionable among hipster dudes and dudettes but 20 something hipsters are not likely to put out big bucks for such a product which is likely to have a premium price. Which leaves collectors and a few well heeled dedicated film junkies, many of whom may not be inclined to outlay the cash either unless it really becomes ultra desirable. And that in part comes down to "name". Nikon and Canon do not have a name for such ultra desirable luxury / discretionary buy products (for that is what it would be). Re releasing a limited run of an old rangefinder may be possible on the other hand but a limited run is never going to do much to satisfy those who long for a return to film and who I guess would in the main not buy a high value limited release product to use in the field.
Unless you are as specialist maker experienced in turning out small volume high value products, as say Leica is, it's a hard market to make any money in and you need the cachet of a name like theirs to help make people want to buy it. Besides "they don't make nostalgia like they used to".
In short here is one for Aussies who will get the cultural reference (others are not likely to).
Unless you are as specialist maker experienced in turning out small volume high value products, as say Leica is, it's a hard market to make any money in and you need the cachet of a name like theirs to help make people want to buy it. Besides "they don't make nostalgia like they used to".
In short here is one for Aussies who will get the cultural reference (others are not likely to).
This is still the case, for new models in production.
The original MSRP has no relevance in the used market, of course.
Once production of a models ends, the supply is fixed, and from there the number dwindles steadily, due to various factors, one of which being, some owners don't want to sell; those cameras may even be completely unused, as new, but they are simply not in the marketplace.
If the demand is low relative to the supply, as it is with most used cameras, the market price will be below the original MSRP.
If the demand is high relative to the supply, as it is with a small number of cameras, then the market price can be higher than the original MSRP.
Inflation also factors in. Cumulative rate of inflation since the mid 80s is over 130%, an MSRP from 1985 isn't going to have any bearing today.
Pricing in the used market has nothing to do with the original build quality and complexity. Sure, build quality may be a factor in the demand part of the equation.
But the market price is simply supply/demand. Econ 101.
And 'good value' is entirely subjective. A 'good value' to photographer A might be a complete waste for photog B, and they are both correct.
colker
Well-known
If you buy a Rollei TLR, Hasselblad or Leica, you are getting cameras that last longer than a Nikon FM. I have a Leica III here which was neglected for 50 yrs. I cleaned it and everything is working, Focus is absolutely smooth and much better than any of my Nikon ais lenses. My Nikon´s FM and FE have jammed shutters and parts are falling. The III is solid.
If everybody goes crazy for Nikon´s FMs and its lenses rival Summicron prices, i can say it´s a silly price situation. Because those cameras have inferior build quality to Leica and Hasselblad. It´s one possible evaluation. I know other forces dictate markets.
Of course, there are differences in build quality between models, doesn't change the equation.
There are always short term market adjustments, like what is happening with a lot of point-and-shoots currently.
Not long ago, couldn't give away most of those models, now they are going for $250ish.
A few years ago, I traded an M6 body straight up for a Contax 645 kit with 80/2 and a couple of backs. The M6 was going for about $1000 at the time, now they are up to about $1500ish. The Contax is now $3500-$4000...demand rose, the supply didn't.
There are always short term market adjustments, like what is happening with a lot of point-and-shoots currently.
Not long ago, couldn't give away most of those models, now they are going for $250ish.
A few years ago, I traded an M6 body straight up for a Contax 645 kit with 80/2 and a couple of backs. The M6 was going for about $1000 at the time, now they are up to about $1500ish. The Contax is now $3500-$4000...demand rose, the supply didn't.
colker
Well-known
In the long term, the Contax regained its value. You did a good trade. It was undervalued. I believe those Xpan prices will fall eventually.
Filter Factor
Established
Sounds like someone missed the re-issue Nikons back in 2000-2005....
Contarama
Well-known
Two guys build them is what I heard....what a job...
Noted
Juergen
There's a couple people at Sendai that basically hand build F6 cameras is what I have read. What a job...
HHPhoto
Well-known
Probably one of the best jobs in the camera industry. Making an iconic camera with very high skills and qualification, and probably a very high level of direct personal responsibility. And without the brutal market pressure of high-volume-at-lowest-cost production.
Cheers, Jan
HHPhoto
Well-known
That is all right.
And we will certainly see new film cameras in the future. Not in the short term, but in the mid- and long term.
The reason is quite simple:
The collapse in demand for digital cameras. In 2018 it has fallen below 20 millions units (CIPA base). That is less than half of the number of sold film cameras in 2000.
The decline in digital camera sales will continue in the coming years, and a further fall below 15 million units p.a. is very likely.
On the other hand the demand for film cameras is increasing and the prices for used cameras, too.
For some medium format cameras you already pay the former new price.
It is not a question whether we will see new film cameras, but when and from which manufacturers. And which types.
I don't think new RF models from Nikon or Canon make any sense. The market is too small, and the R&D costs too high. They will most probably introduce SLRs which fit into their EF mount and F mount systems.
At Photokina 2008 one of the Zeiss Ikon representatives told me the global Rangefinder market is only about 1/1000 of the SLR market.
And Leica is serving the RF market very well (last Photokina they said that they have increasing demand for their film-based MP and M-A cameras).
If at all anyone besides Leica will offer RF cameras again then maybe Cosina Voigtländer.
Cheers, Jan
colker
Well-known
Excellent. You just expressed in objective data what i wrote from intuition. Social media is a sensitive thermometer for public taste and change about to happen. The amount of film enthusiasm in Instagram and blogosphere is intense right now and rising up. Prices for film cameras are on the rise. I see new old stock film being offered. Habits are changing... and yet: the big players have done nothing about it. Fuji, Canon and Nikon. They know more than myself(i hope they do). Either they have already something cooking or they are still waiting for more definition from one big film company.
Digital gave camera companies something they never had: control of the entire workflow. Film never let that happen: film companies and camera companies split the job. Something didn´t work though.. and people never forgot film.
Otoh, Leica cannot hold the RF market on her own. Never did and never will. Leica is elitist: their concern is do the best, no cost measures, camera. It´s an impossible diet for the market. Canon, Nikon and others made the balance in the past. Cosina did it a while ago. Either Cosina jumps in or someone else will.
colker
Well-known
I am talking something very different: a new camera w/ a competitive price. Not a museum piece.
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