Tim Gray
Well-known
I think its a couple of things:
1. Popularity of the M9.
2. Shortage of new lenses.
3. Rising prices on the new gear pushes prices on the used gear up. Remember when Leica put out the last 100 50/1's at 10k? The price on used 50/1's went up to 5-6k almost over overnight.
4. Crappy economy.
Personally, I think the crappy economy affects us normal people more. People who can go out and buy an M9, 50 ASPH, and a 21 or 24 Summilux on a whim are probably less affected. Couple that with the other factors listed above, and it's not that big of a deal if they have to pay an extra $500 for a 50 ASPH to get it NOW instead of in nine months.
1. Popularity of the M9.
2. Shortage of new lenses.
3. Rising prices on the new gear pushes prices on the used gear up. Remember when Leica put out the last 100 50/1's at 10k? The price on used 50/1's went up to 5-6k almost over overnight.
4. Crappy economy.
Personally, I think the crappy economy affects us normal people more. People who can go out and buy an M9, 50 ASPH, and a 21 or 24 Summilux on a whim are probably less affected. Couple that with the other factors listed above, and it's not that big of a deal if they have to pay an extra $500 for a 50 ASPH to get it NOW instead of in nine months.
Vickko
Veteran
NO NO NO.
Never take profit with selling Leica stuff. Sell stocks, sell organs, sell other camera stuff, sell anything else. Okay, almost anything else.....
Leica stuff never comes down in price. Nor does it become easier to find.
Vick
Never take profit with selling Leica stuff. Sell stocks, sell organs, sell other camera stuff, sell anything else. Okay, almost anything else.....
Leica stuff never comes down in price. Nor does it become easier to find.
Vick
rogerzilla
Well-known
I think Nocti prices have gone up and down a lot over the years.
claacct
Well-known
I blame Ken Rockwell.
redisburning
Well-known
what I want to know is why m2 and m4 prices are so high now.
I knew the Japanese have a fondness for Leica, I did not know the Chinese were the same way.
I think we have to face a new reality if the Chinese really want all of our/Japanese old stuff; there are never going to be new OM/K/MD lenses and there will never be enough Leica stuff to go around at old prices. Even if China implodes (as they are historically inclined to doing), there is still enough residual money there.
And I dont know anything about a film resurgence. Ive seen several films get canceled just over the course of the last 2 years; I cant even walk into a camera store and buy Neopan 400 anymore regardless of whether they are still making it.
I knew the Japanese have a fondness for Leica, I did not know the Chinese were the same way.
I think we have to face a new reality if the Chinese really want all of our/Japanese old stuff; there are never going to be new OM/K/MD lenses and there will never be enough Leica stuff to go around at old prices. Even if China implodes (as they are historically inclined to doing), there is still enough residual money there.
And I dont know anything about a film resurgence. Ive seen several films get canceled just over the course of the last 2 years; I cant even walk into a camera store and buy Neopan 400 anymore regardless of whether they are still making it.
raid
Dad Photographer
Summilux
Summilux
I must have gotten lucky by buying last year used Summilux 35mm V2 and 75mm lenses for a total cost of $3000.
Summilux
I must have gotten lucky by buying last year used Summilux 35mm V2 and 75mm lenses for a total cost of $3000.
raid
Dad Photographer
I don't think that prices will go down soon for Leica lenses. It is also the same for Leica mount lenses. Take the Nikkor 85mm/2 or the 50/2 or 50/1.4; they are up in value. I sold a never used Canon 35/2 (new old stock) for less than $500 here. Try finding one these days for such a price.
mynikonf2
OEM
...another thing I've noticed is that some rather rare stuff is starting to show up in the market place & not just Leica gear. I have been able to purchase a few Nikon items (and of course, watch others purchase a lot more of the gear) that I have wanted for years. :bang:
It's obvious that people are taking advantage of these higher prices to part with their treasures.
It's obvious that people are taking advantage of these higher prices to part with their treasures.
eleskin
Well-known
Lenses are the future more than sensors!!!!
Lenses are the future more than sensors!!!!
Cameras and the next new sensor are becoming redundant in my opinion. We are approaching the time of diminishing returns. The next revolution seems to be in mirrorless designs, and it is only a matter of time before we see more full frame options beyond the M9. What this will do is create new markets for all kinds of lenses, including many of the classics made by nikon, Leica, Minolta, Canon, Olympus, Zeiss, etc,,,. The camera will be seen for what it really is, a box that holds film or in this case a sensor. Since excellent sensors will be more the norm as time marches on (yawn, yawn) , people will see the lens as the most important with the most value in that they are the tools that paint with light in a unique way based on who designed them (Walter Mandler, etc,,) and how they draw with light or render the image.
One thing is certain. Lenses of many makes will increase in value, Leica, Canon, Nikon, Minolta, etc,,,,,.
So my advise is buy as much glass as you can afford. I buy Leica used all the time when I see a good deal, and new Voigtlander stuff as well. Lenses are your paintbrushes. Your canvas is the sensor or film. Remember that!!!!!
Lenses are the future more than sensors!!!!
Cameras and the next new sensor are becoming redundant in my opinion. We are approaching the time of diminishing returns. The next revolution seems to be in mirrorless designs, and it is only a matter of time before we see more full frame options beyond the M9. What this will do is create new markets for all kinds of lenses, including many of the classics made by nikon, Leica, Minolta, Canon, Olympus, Zeiss, etc,,,. The camera will be seen for what it really is, a box that holds film or in this case a sensor. Since excellent sensors will be more the norm as time marches on (yawn, yawn) , people will see the lens as the most important with the most value in that they are the tools that paint with light in a unique way based on who designed them (Walter Mandler, etc,,) and how they draw with light or render the image.
One thing is certain. Lenses of many makes will increase in value, Leica, Canon, Nikon, Minolta, etc,,,,,.
So my advise is buy as much glass as you can afford. I buy Leica used all the time when I see a good deal, and new Voigtlander stuff as well. Lenses are your paintbrushes. Your canvas is the sensor or film. Remember that!!!!!
eleskin
Well-known
I bought glass rather than an M9
I bought glass rather than an M9
I invested in glass over the past few years since 2007 when I bought my first M8. At that time, I had a 35mm Summicron V4 and a 28mm Elmarit from the early 1980's. I used to have more Leica glass (50mm Dual range Summicon, 90mm Summicon) but sold that to finance some medium format stuff. I went nuts on Ebay in 2007 to mid 2009 and found the following at these prices: 50mm f1.0 Noctilux ($4,700), 50mm Summicron late version ($695), 50mm Summitar ($150), 90mm Tele Elmarit ($235), 135 Elmarit with eyes ($300) and 280mm Telyt late vesion ($300).
I was considering an M9 but the lenses got the best of me. I am glad I made this choice based on what I know and what I read on this thread.
I also bought new a 15mm Super Wide Heliar, 35mm f1.2 Nokton, 40mm Nokton, Jupiter 8, Jupiter 9, Industar 61LD, Visoflex 2 and 3.
If I would sell right now I could really cash in, but I will not. For me, it is all about the glass. The camera is an afterthought!!!1
I bought glass rather than an M9
I invested in glass over the past few years since 2007 when I bought my first M8. At that time, I had a 35mm Summicron V4 and a 28mm Elmarit from the early 1980's. I used to have more Leica glass (50mm Dual range Summicon, 90mm Summicon) but sold that to finance some medium format stuff. I went nuts on Ebay in 2007 to mid 2009 and found the following at these prices: 50mm f1.0 Noctilux ($4,700), 50mm Summicron late version ($695), 50mm Summitar ($150), 90mm Tele Elmarit ($235), 135 Elmarit with eyes ($300) and 280mm Telyt late vesion ($300).
I was considering an M9 but the lenses got the best of me. I am glad I made this choice based on what I know and what I read on this thread.
I also bought new a 15mm Super Wide Heliar, 35mm f1.2 Nokton, 40mm Nokton, Jupiter 8, Jupiter 9, Industar 61LD, Visoflex 2 and 3.
If I would sell right now I could really cash in, but I will not. For me, it is all about the glass. The camera is an afterthought!!!1
Brian Legge
Veteran
I think we solved it. Eleskin has them all.
eleskin
Well-known
Never Sell If You Can Help It!!!
Never Sell If You Can Help It!!!
When I think back when I sold off my Dual Range Summicron and 90mm Summicron, I regret it. I swore to myself I would not do that again!
So any of you out there, hold on to the glass!!! You will only be forced to buy it or something like it back later. When I had my M8 for the first time, I had that feeling. You never know when these lenses will make themselves very useful. Remember why some artists have so many different types of paintbrushes. It is the same with many photographers regarding lenses!
Never Sell If You Can Help It!!!
When I think back when I sold off my Dual Range Summicron and 90mm Summicron, I regret it. I swore to myself I would not do that again!
So any of you out there, hold on to the glass!!! You will only be forced to buy it or something like it back later. When I had my M8 for the first time, I had that feeling. You never know when these lenses will make themselves very useful. Remember why some artists have so many different types of paintbrushes. It is the same with many photographers regarding lenses!
eleskin
Well-known
Brian, I love your sense of humor!!!!
Now for the D.C. Budget talks. maybe Uncle Sam should have bought
leica Lenses a few years ago!!!!
Now for the D.C. Budget talks. maybe Uncle Sam should have bought
leica Lenses a few years ago!!!!
rogerzilla
Well-known
I'm not sure FF sensor prices will come down to $200 or whatever for a FF digicam. The yield on physically large chips is poor than for small digicam chips because a small flaw or contamination on the silicon wafer means rejection, so you might get a 1 in 2 rejection rate rather than 1 in 20. Moore's Law doesn't help you here; all that does is help to pack more megapixels onto small chips (which some would argue has already gone beyond its reasonable limits, since a 16MP digicam sensor gets very noisy).
Mass production of FF sensors would bring prices down a bit because the R&D costs are amortised over more units, but barring a breakthrough in clean room techniques I don't think we'll see all cameras becoming FF.
Mass production of FF sensors would bring prices down a bit because the R&D costs are amortised over more units, but barring a breakthrough in clean room techniques I don't think we'll see all cameras becoming FF.
menos
Veteran
I think, it's mainly because the second hand artist paint brush market really collapsed two years ago, dragging the best of the western worlds economies with it … the rest is history.
Eleskin really got this here ;-)
I basically did the same, and I am really happy about it.
I used my M8.2 since I got it second hand and swore, I never will buy any of those little advance, high priced M9 over it.
I bought glass instead: 50/1, 75/1.4, 35/1.4 ASPH, 135/3.4 APO, many LTM lenses, I always desired, Leica film bodies.
I finally picked up a M9 some weeks ago and couldn't be happier.
The expensive lenses, I bought over the last year already finance the M9 in value increase. There are not many more lenses, I desire.
One of the last unicorns, I wanted was the 75 Lux.
That should be it for now ;-)
I hope, the market get's a bit more sane soon, as new lenses and demand cool down a bit. I really don't like the massive interesting stuff of older LTM glass being simply overpriced and would like to experiment a bit more.
Recently a 85 Summarex just has been outbid and sold for ~ 2000 EUR, if I remember correctly - crazy world.
Avotius
Some guy
Its funny how many people here are talking about the Chinese buying up Leica gear.
I agree with this however I have a huge BUT to put in.
The Chinese want new Leica gear, the used Leica market here is totally stagnant, the prices are already so high and the kind of people here who can afford Leica stuff could not give a crap about a few thousand yuan more as the price for used and new is not too far off each other here, you can expect used to go for about 70-90% of new prices even on old stuff. It sucks but its true. I have tried to sell used gear here before but no one bites, even after putting down very fair Ameri/Euro prices on it and they still wont bite. Its what I said, they want new.
I agree with this however I have a huge BUT to put in.
The Chinese want new Leica gear, the used Leica market here is totally stagnant, the prices are already so high and the kind of people here who can afford Leica stuff could not give a crap about a few thousand yuan more as the price for used and new is not too far off each other here, you can expect used to go for about 70-90% of new prices even on old stuff. It sucks but its true. I have tried to sell used gear here before but no one bites, even after putting down very fair Ameri/Euro prices on it and they still wont bite. Its what I said, they want new.
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Peter_Jones
Well-known
I'd better not reveal how little I paid for my M4, 50/1.4 & DR50
Needless to say, I landed on my feet with that deal ! (BTW I'm keeping it, not trying to make a fast quid)
Needless to say, I landed on my feet with that deal ! (BTW I'm keeping it, not trying to make a fast quid)
menos
Veteran
True, I never saw a high ticket used deal with Chinese customers involved.
The deals, I have witnessed have been about beaten M6s, second hand M8s and rather less costly "first lenses"
The shops do have expensive second stuff though and the development goes, that former big second hand shops expand in selling Leica, but advertise more products as "new" (often, I found, that the stuff in fact has not been "new", when I had a look).
The word "new" slips over sellers lips pretty quickly in China - one has to check carefully.
I found also, that prices in China are going out of range pretty quickly with all my last more expensive items having bought over seas (France, Germany, US).
I finally found that 75 Lux, I have been waiting for such a long time.
If it is the deal, I think, it is, I have just bought a lens, which sells about 30% more in China, than I paid for. I don't intent, to sell it anytime soon, but I would not buy it at such silly prices, as advertised in Shanghai.
The last interesting deal, that has been offered to me in Shanghai made my heart bleed.
A 75 Summicron ASPH in cosmetic user condition with box and papers for a price, one could have bought a new one for just one year ago!
The catch was, that this lens has been sitting clearly a long time in a very, very hot room, resulting in this lens all hazed up with completely dry focus helicoids and dripping wet aperture! :bang:
How on earth can a honest seller advertise something cruel as this for such a price?
It needed at least a 300 EUR ticket back at Solms (as no body else will touch this FLE 75mm for a CLA, who is competent and honest enough, to expose this to a potential customer).
China is crazy for buying Leica these days. I have developed myself from a serious upfront buyer in Chinese shops into a shop fondler, often going out empty handed, when some years ago, I only touched an item, when I intended to buy seriously - it's become that bad!
dfoo
Well-known
I tried to sell numerous Leica stuff to the used camera markets in Shanghai. An M4-p, an M3, a Summicron 35v3, CV 28/1.9 CV 28/3.5 and a CV 35/1.4. The only one I could actually sell (without giving it away) was the 28/1.9. The remainder, they either don't want to buy it at all or offer a pittance.
Harlee
Well-known
It's not only the Leicas, I see prices for the lowly Yashica and Olympus models jumping up into the $200+ brackets now. If it's not the price then it's the shipping prices. People out there are trying to make a killing by dumping their 35mm cameras.