Jason_K
Shooter
Uncle Bill said:
It has definitely created a stir, not just here, but on other forums as well. Has any one noticed that there's been nearly 14,000 views of this thread?
C
ch1
Guest
RJBender said:
RJ,
Oh yes, I know.
This is actually a whole lot of fun. A bunch of photographers "groping in the dark" over a 'teaser' web advert.
Goes to show that we're all a bunch of gossipers at heart!
Funny thing is that now, whatever the "real news" is - it will be a "ho hum". Like the one fellow above who works in PR said - Zeiss is doing a "drip, drip, drip...".
I still can't wait to find out who's guess it right!.
And, BTW, can you believe the number of "hits" to this thread? What a great "plug" for RF and RFF.
WOW!!!
RJBender
RFF Sponsoring Member
Camerquest has F mount Voigtlanders
Camerquest has F mount Voigtlanders
One of RFF's sponsors has these in stock.
http://www.cameraquest.com/Voigt SL.htm
R.J.
Camerquest has F mount Voigtlanders
One of RFF's sponsors has these in stock.
http://www.cameraquest.com/Voigt SL.htm
R.J.
Zeiss has its own designs with its own name-branding that actually have relevance to the optics, and customers count on that reputation and credibility. I just cannot see why Carl Zeiss would employ "label engineering" to paste their famous names on some other company's lenses.copake_ham said:
Formerly, Carl Zeiss lenses have been made in Japan at the Tomioka plant owned by Kyocera. Those were not Yashica lenses, but Zeiss lenses. That arrangement is now past and the plant is closed. A different series of Carl Zeiss lenses for RF cameras is now made in cooperation with Cosina. It certainly seems reasonable that this arrangement may be expanded to produce Zeiss lenses for other purposes. But re-branding Cosina's lenses with Zeiss names? No way...
RJBender
RFF Sponsoring Member
copake_ham said:RJ,
Oh yes, I know.
This is actually a whole lot of fun. A bunch of photographers "groping in the dark" over a 'teaser' web advert.
Goes to show that we're all a bunch of gossipers at heart!
Funny thing is that now, whatever the "real news" is - it will be a "ho hum". Like the one fellow above who works in PR said - Zeiss is doing a "drip, drip, drip...".
I still can't wait to find out who's guess it right!.
And, BTW, can you believe the number of "hits" to this thread? What a great "plug" for RF and RFF.
WOW!!!
All they have to do is "leak" some images on their websites to the right people and get free publicity. Why spend € advertising in magazines?
R.J.
C
ch1
Guest
RJBender said:
RJ,
Yes, I was looking again at the site earlier today. Before this thread -how many folks really knew that Cosina made F-mount SLR lenses?
Very few.
The Cosina/Zeiss deal for the Ikon body was a first step. It's led to rebranding the Cosina M-mount lenses as Zeiss ZM.
Now, the next "shoe drops" and Cosina F-mounts are re-branded as Zeiss.
BTW: I have a couple of CV lenses for my Nikon S2 - they make very fine glass - although they don't generally have "fast" lenses.
Zeiss has picked a good partner to initiate its foray into SLR lenses. But, truth be told, with both the Ikon body and now the F-mount lenses they are "outsourcing their brand" via licensing.
If I were a shareholder of Zeiss I'd be thrilled. I suspect that the "true believers" of the Zeiss "zeitgieist" are less enamored.
Oh well, que sera, sera.....
Regards,
George
Mazurka
Well-known
waterlenz said:
So the decision to adopt the style didn't originate from Mr Kobayashi's direction after all? Would you expect Cosina to do so for their Voigtlander-brand if the German Voigtlander-designed Icarex did not sport this style on their lenses?
BTW, how dare you mention cameras in your own post, let alone 35mm film cameras!
I guess at least 80% of all medium focal-length lenses also "originate from" the Planar, Tessar and Sonnar/Ernostar designs, including those from Zeiss' arch-rival Leica and even today's AF versions. I wonder why we hardly mention that fact?
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bobofish
Two-fisted Atom Smasher
Copake Ham,
While I disagree with one of your points, I firmly agree with the other.
Cosina is not simply making rebranded lenses and RF bodies...Zeiss developed the Ikon and provided the formulas and specs to the lenses. Since Zeiss has no manufacturing capability for cameras anymore, they have to have somebody build it for them to spec...it's a whole different ball game than Cosina using Voigtlaender's name. Those Zeiss M lenses are for all intents and purposes Zeiss lenses, simply made in Japan by a non Zeiss factory. I don't think many people would argue that a Nikon FM3 is not a Nikon simply because it's not made by Nikon. (or is that another model I'm thinking of?)
However, I agree fully that when companies have other companies make their products, it seems like a cop-out. Apple doesn't make Apple computers, they only design them, so they have a measure of "not our fault" added to the mix when things go wrong. Personal responsibility and quality above profit are not big factors in the modern business world.
For some reason, people have decided that sending factories to China, or even factories in Japan which have only marginally lower labor costs, is a good, and acceptable thing. In the end, it will destroy the economies of the West, while providing share-holder earnings in the short term.
After all, why did Henry Ford decide to pay his workers significantly above market wage, way back when? Anybody who knows about Ford knows that it wasn't out of pure human benevolence...it was a way to increase worker productivity and efficiency, while at the same time guaranteeing a market.
But that's an argument that will be largely a waste of time for us to have here, because unless you and I have a few billion to invest in a purely Western company, the decisions are not ours.
While I disagree with one of your points, I firmly agree with the other.
Cosina is not simply making rebranded lenses and RF bodies...Zeiss developed the Ikon and provided the formulas and specs to the lenses. Since Zeiss has no manufacturing capability for cameras anymore, they have to have somebody build it for them to spec...it's a whole different ball game than Cosina using Voigtlaender's name. Those Zeiss M lenses are for all intents and purposes Zeiss lenses, simply made in Japan by a non Zeiss factory. I don't think many people would argue that a Nikon FM3 is not a Nikon simply because it's not made by Nikon. (or is that another model I'm thinking of?)
However, I agree fully that when companies have other companies make their products, it seems like a cop-out. Apple doesn't make Apple computers, they only design them, so they have a measure of "not our fault" added to the mix when things go wrong. Personal responsibility and quality above profit are not big factors in the modern business world.
For some reason, people have decided that sending factories to China, or even factories in Japan which have only marginally lower labor costs, is a good, and acceptable thing. In the end, it will destroy the economies of the West, while providing share-holder earnings in the short term.
After all, why did Henry Ford decide to pay his workers significantly above market wage, way back when? Anybody who knows about Ford knows that it wasn't out of pure human benevolence...it was a way to increase worker productivity and efficiency, while at the same time guaranteeing a market.
But that's an argument that will be largely a waste of time for us to have here, because unless you and I have a few billion to invest in a purely Western company, the decisions are not ours.
RJBender
RFF Sponsoring Member
This reminds me of the time when Cosina was releasing information on their Japanese website about their new Voigtlander Bessa. Bob Shell was still at Shutterbug and he had never of it. I can't comment on Marc James Small's reaction to a made in Japan Voigtlander.
R.J.
R.J.
Mazurka
Well-known
bobofish said:
That's FM10 you're talking about. Contrary to assertions by Leica zealots, the FM3A (or at least a large part of it) is hand-made just like their anachronistic M (which I also happen to own.) I got the pictures to prove it but that's another thread in another forum.
Bobo's right about the Zeiss Ikon range being Zeiss products. What would anyone call the BMW X3 but a BMW, even though it is made in Austria by a contractor the way the ZI is?
RJBender
RFF Sponsoring Member
Doug said:Zeiss has its own designs with its own name-branding that actually have relevance to the optics, and customers count on that reputation and credibility. I just cannot see why Carl Zeiss would employ "label engineering" to paste their famous names on some other company's lenses.
Formerly, Carl Zeiss lenses have been made in Japan at the Tomioka plant owned by Kyocera. Those were not Yashica lenses, but Zeiss lenses. That arrangement is now past and the plant is closed. A different series of Carl Zeiss lenses for RF cameras is now made in cooperation with Cosina. It certainly seems reasonable that this arrangement may be expanded to produce Zeiss lenses for other purposes. But re-branding Cosina's lenses with Zeiss names? No way...
Doug, from 1976-81 Rollei was producing the SL35E and SL35M (reincarnated Zeiss Icarex) in Singapore. Rollei was also producing 50mm f/1.8 HFT Planar and 135mm f/4 HFT Tele-Tessar lenses at their plant in Singapore. The lenses don't have the Zeiss name on them... just Planar and Tele-Tessar.
R.J.
RJBender
RFF Sponsoring Member
... and the SL35 was made in Germany and Singapore. I've heard that the Rollei Planars and Tele-Tessars are Zeiss designs, however the demand is for equipment made in Germany.
R.J.
R.J.
paulfitz
Established
You can still purchase a new 50mm f/1.2 AIS mount from B&H. I think this is the fastest in current production. There is also a 28mm 1.4 AF mount.
paulfitz
Established
Sorry, that post makes no sense - someone asked earlier what the fastest lens was.
S
StuartR
Guest
HFT and T* are basically the same thing. Both are Zeiss inventions. http://www.dantestella.com/zeiss/coatings.html
Bryan Lee
Expat Street Photographer
StuartR said:
The SINAR M is a 22 megapixal high dollar version. I believe it will be revealed in the ZF line of lenses this new technology was considered in their design which will make them relevant for future digital useage. Im guessing there will also be a body released with it just as the IKON and the M lenses. The key to all of this is digital and the way the SINAR M captures digital images. This could easily be scaled down and mass produced at say 10 megapixels there by offeing millions of consumers a new product with optional lenses. Why all this on a rangefiner forum?
Well here is a easy prediction for me to make. The IKON D. The new lenses on the IKON are manual focused lenses most likely tweaked in design for this new digital technology which can easily be used in a rangefinder. The RD is already a year old and maybe Epson isnt ready to take it to the next level. I dont think many Leica users would realy be comfortable putting thair lenses on a Epson body anyway but a ZEISS digital body, FORGET ABOUT IT, They would be waiting in line all night at the camera shop like kids for a new Star Wars movie.
Huck Finn
Well-known
Bryan Lee said:
Bryan, I think you make some very interesting points. The Sinar can simply represent the expensive R&D for new variations on the emerging technology. As I recall, the first Nikon digital of any kind 8 or 10 years ago cost $10,000. If the Sinar technology can be adapted to other uses, this can be the "open, sesame" to sensor quality that Zeiss has said that they've been looking for. It would certainly make sense that Zeiss knows a lot more than those of us on the outside do about what projects are in the works that will emerge on the futures market in coming months & years. It could be very interesting.
Huck Finn
Well-known
copake_ham said:
George,
It's a shame to see this kind of misinformation disseminated on the internet long after it seemed that such nonsense had been put to bed.
1. There is not a single lens in the ZM line that was developed by Cosina & then re-branded with the Zeiss name.
2. The new ZF lenses will not include a single lens that was formerly sold as a Cosina F-mount lens.
3. Cosina does not own a license for any Zeiss brand products. Some other companies, like Rollei, do produce Zeiss designs under license from Carl Zeiss AG, but Cosina isn't one of them.
The ZM lenses are proprietary Zeiss designs re-engineered by Zeiss engineers, spec'd for production by Zeiss, made to Zeiss quality control standards, inspected & tested before release for Zeiss quality assurance, & warranteed by Zeiss to the customer.
Bryan Lee
Expat Street Photographer
Huck Finn said:
I dont have a RD1 but I follow what people say about it and one of the chief complaints Ive heard is the way the image transfers from the lense to the sensor/scanner. Being able to move a ajustable digital film back could resolve this issue. Think about it this way, A SPEED GRAPHIC with all the controls on the rear of the camera and a heavy duty stationary lense mount on the front. Then it doesnt matter what you put on the front you can just ajust the rear for highest resolution.
C
ch1
Guest
Huck Finn said:
Who makes the new Zeiss Ikon?
Enough.
This thread has become stale. It's a nice sunny day here in NYC (Sunny 16!) and I want to go shoot some pics at lunchtime with my Cosina/Voighlander/Bessa R2S (which uses a Nikon RF mout).