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Frank Granovski
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No! Really? You too?
What's coming on Dec 21?
- Thread starter Mazurka
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ch1
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Quote:
The latest from the website,,,,,,,, I never thought I would see a German company use this term, The Final Solution, I bet someone gets fired! Now they will get their free press!
Whether or not it is simply poor phraseology, it is offensive as hell. Besides, why would you have someone write ad copy in English if they have such a poor command of the language?
The latest from the website,,,,,,,, I never thought I would see a German company use this term, The Final Solution, I bet someone gets fired! Now they will get their free press!
Frank Granovski said:
Whether or not it is simply poor phraseology, it is offensive as hell. Besides, why would you have someone write ad copy in English if they have such a poor command of the language?
Bryan Lee
Expat Street Photographer
The FINAL SOLUTION
The Final Solution of the Jewish Question (German Endlösung der Judenfrage) refers to the German Nazis' plan to genocidally kill the entire European Jewish population during World War II. The term was coined by Adolf Eichmann, a top Nazi official who supervised the genocidal campaign. The execution of the Final Solution resulted in the most deadly phase of the Holocaust.
I did a google on FINAL SOLUTION and it came up with thousands and thousands of hits, It is defined as this by every dictionary I checked also, The definition at the top is the first few lines of wikpedia. I deal with translation isuues everyday and when you advertise to a audiance of a paticuler language you must always have it written or proof read by a native speaker.
The Final Solution of the Jewish Question (German Endlösung der Judenfrage) refers to the German Nazis' plan to genocidally kill the entire European Jewish population during World War II. The term was coined by Adolf Eichmann, a top Nazi official who supervised the genocidal campaign. The execution of the Final Solution resulted in the most deadly phase of the Holocaust.
I did a google on FINAL SOLUTION and it came up with thousands and thousands of hits, It is defined as this by every dictionary I checked also, The definition at the top is the first few lines of wikpedia. I deal with translation isuues everyday and when you advertise to a audiance of a paticuler language you must always have it written or proof read by a native speaker.
waterlenz
Established
Socke said:
One needs to separate Nazi politics from German technology. German technology was considered so good in 1945 that there was virtual race between the US and USSR to grab as much as each could get at the end of the war.
Speaking of driving... is there anyone on this list who has NOT driven on a freeway (US lexicon for Autobahn)?
However, as we were taught in school the word is 'all-powerful', etc. The words 'The Final Solution' regardless of context have a very dark meaning.
Tom
waterlenz
Established
Huck Finn said:
Very well said!! The Sonnar type for me has been more difficult to pin down as the block diagrams are quite variable. For example, the 250/5.6 6x6 format Sonnar has a very thick element that many other Sonnars do not have. I gather it was originally used for fast lenses and thus named for the sun; many of the orginals had just three element groups to keep glass-air surfaces to six. Today this is not always the case. Most short tele's seem to fit the Sonnar type if they are not symetrical which would make them more Planarish.
Tom
Mazurka
Well-known
Socke said:
You mean Leitz and Zeiss, both of which also supplied photo and other equipment to the Nazis? The Third Reich's military used BMW motorcycles extensively and BMW engines were used by the Luftwaffe. The company itself used slave labour too. The Volkswagen (the name and intended market) was coined by the Nazis, if not by A.H. himself. The list goes on and on.
Anyway, I believe the unfortunate choice of words is an honest mistake made by someone whose first language isn't English. (FWIW, the offensive term on the Zeiss site is not capitalized the way it is when used in connection to the Holocaust.) There are lots of taboos in every language and culture. Sooner or later, one is bound to commit word blunders if you use any foreign language at all. Now that Jorge has told them, I hope they retract it ASAP.
I'm sure Zeiss would have a native speaker check and re-check everything if it was a legal document. But you can't expect every company to do that for every advertising copy.
Even within the same langauge, many terms can have different meanings depending on locale. What do you think "knock up" mean on either side of the Atlantic?
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Bryan Lee
Expat Street Photographer
Issue No. 22
September 2005
Production of Sinaron Digital AF has started!
On Monday, 22nd of August 2005, series production of digital lenses for Sinar m started at Carl Zeiss, while a group of 50 journalists and Sinar dealers from North America visited the factory in Oberkochen, Germany.
The Sinar m is the only digital medium format camera today which is designed from scratch solely for professional photography. Sinar avoids the usual compromises with which other medium format autofocus cameras try to appeal to amateur photographers and thus maximise production numbers.
The 4 new sinaron digital AF lenses feature fully electrical focus and iris control. Thus, autofocus is possible as well as remote controlled focusing for positioning the focus precisely where the photographer wants it, a fully professional feature not available in other medium format autofocus cameras which were designed with amateur horizons in mind.
The 4 sinaron digital AF lenses from Carl Zeiss are:
* the retrofocus wide angle lens Distagon T* 4/40,
* the standard lens Planar T* 2,8/80,
* the macro lens Makro-Planar T* 4/120, and
* the telephoto lens Sonnar T* 4/180.
The optical design of these lenses takes into account the aberrations caused by the filters in front of the digital imaging sensor. Since digital imaging sensors show better flatness than silver halide film in most medium format film magazines, the Carl Zeiss sinaron digital AF lenses also are designed and adjusted for superior flat field characteristics. This leads to a superior detail definition from center to corner, compared to other medium format lenses.
September 2005
Production of Sinaron Digital AF has started!
On Monday, 22nd of August 2005, series production of digital lenses for Sinar m started at Carl Zeiss, while a group of 50 journalists and Sinar dealers from North America visited the factory in Oberkochen, Germany.
The Sinar m is the only digital medium format camera today which is designed from scratch solely for professional photography. Sinar avoids the usual compromises with which other medium format autofocus cameras try to appeal to amateur photographers and thus maximise production numbers.
The 4 new sinaron digital AF lenses feature fully electrical focus and iris control. Thus, autofocus is possible as well as remote controlled focusing for positioning the focus precisely where the photographer wants it, a fully professional feature not available in other medium format autofocus cameras which were designed with amateur horizons in mind.
The 4 sinaron digital AF lenses from Carl Zeiss are:
* the retrofocus wide angle lens Distagon T* 4/40,
* the standard lens Planar T* 2,8/80,
* the macro lens Makro-Planar T* 4/120, and
* the telephoto lens Sonnar T* 4/180.
The optical design of these lenses takes into account the aberrations caused by the filters in front of the digital imaging sensor. Since digital imaging sensors show better flatness than silver halide film in most medium format film magazines, the Carl Zeiss sinaron digital AF lenses also are designed and adjusted for superior flat field characteristics. This leads to a superior detail definition from center to corner, compared to other medium format lenses.
Mazurka
Well-known
Oddly enough, I just received a 2005 pamphlet on the complete range of Zeiss camera lenses (still and movie) in yesterday's mail. Should I OCR-scan it and post the whole thing here, or do I just post the medium format stuff?
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Bryan Lee
Expat Street Photographer
SINARON MEDIUM FORMAT DIGITAL AF
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Bryan Lee
Expat Street Photographer
Mazurka said:Oddly enough, I just received a 2005 pamphlet on the complete range of Zeiss camera lenses (still and movie) in yesterday's mail. Should I OCR-scan it and post the whole thing here, or do I just post the medium format stuff?
Why not? Its a long time til the 18th of January, Maybe it will help with some more wild guesses for the ZF line. I was just wondering if the ZF will look anything like the SINARON, what do you think?
bobofish
Two-fisted Atom Smasher
Bryan,
The Sinar M is indeed a super cool camera. It's got a lot of very well designed and engineered technology, but precious little of it will probablly be implemented in any Zeiss offerings for Nikon mounts. I just don't see it happening....
What would be the logic in offering autofocus Zeiss lenses for autofocus Nikon bodies, and then simultaneously offer a Zeiss version of an autofocus camera?
By offering such a camera, they would automatically be saying "come on, use EITHER Nikon or Zeiss lenses on our camera." Instead of maximizing their sales to restless Nikon users with a hankering for something special, they would be kicking themselves in the foot.
Now, it would be foolish for us to rule out autofocus lenses, becuase they obviously make sense for many people...not just amateurs (the ones with deep pockets will possibly reach for the Zeiss shelf in the store) but also for photographers with failing eyesight. After all, that's one of the big reasons why so many advanced amateurs and seasoned pros moved away from manual focus in the first place, they couldn't focus as quickly as they once could.
I just don't see Zeiss having the money to invest in a direct competitor body to Nikon...the film market is dying for all intents and purposes, and the digital scene isn't hardly past puberty. At this point, Zeiss is most likely doing whatever they can to maintain a foothold in the camera lens biz. Investing the needed tens of millions in anything approaching a real competition to Nikon's superb bodies would be somewhat silly, and probablly a waste of money at this point. Now if their lenses do well, in a couple of years, I do believe we'll see a screaming good Contax come out.
Incidentally, I've noticed over the last few months that Zeiss seems to be getting aggressive in their marketing of other products as well...I've noticed their scopes and binoculars popping up in sporting goods stores in my area, as well as at sportsmans' shows. Previously Leica occupied pride of place above Leupold (a local company) in most of the 'finer' store shelves, but have been replaced by Zeiss.
The Sinar M is indeed a super cool camera. It's got a lot of very well designed and engineered technology, but precious little of it will probablly be implemented in any Zeiss offerings for Nikon mounts. I just don't see it happening....
What would be the logic in offering autofocus Zeiss lenses for autofocus Nikon bodies, and then simultaneously offer a Zeiss version of an autofocus camera?
By offering such a camera, they would automatically be saying "come on, use EITHER Nikon or Zeiss lenses on our camera." Instead of maximizing their sales to restless Nikon users with a hankering for something special, they would be kicking themselves in the foot.
Now, it would be foolish for us to rule out autofocus lenses, becuase they obviously make sense for many people...not just amateurs (the ones with deep pockets will possibly reach for the Zeiss shelf in the store) but also for photographers with failing eyesight. After all, that's one of the big reasons why so many advanced amateurs and seasoned pros moved away from manual focus in the first place, they couldn't focus as quickly as they once could.
I just don't see Zeiss having the money to invest in a direct competitor body to Nikon...the film market is dying for all intents and purposes, and the digital scene isn't hardly past puberty. At this point, Zeiss is most likely doing whatever they can to maintain a foothold in the camera lens biz. Investing the needed tens of millions in anything approaching a real competition to Nikon's superb bodies would be somewhat silly, and probablly a waste of money at this point. Now if their lenses do well, in a couple of years, I do believe we'll see a screaming good Contax come out.
Incidentally, I've noticed over the last few months that Zeiss seems to be getting aggressive in their marketing of other products as well...I've noticed their scopes and binoculars popping up in sporting goods stores in my area, as well as at sportsmans' shows. Previously Leica occupied pride of place above Leupold (a local company) in most of the 'finer' store shelves, but have been replaced by Zeiss.
Bryan Lee
Expat Street Photographer
My sales philosophy in one of my past lives was to provide something for everyone, We had 5 bars connected to a main entrance on a busy walking street. That way whoever was walking down the street would be comfortable in one of the 5 bars and come in and spend money. Why not have bodys and lenses in F mount with manual focus and auto focus. The biggest problem they had with Contax is they didnt fit on anything the masses used, maybe they learned their lesson. This would provide something for everyone and could reach millions in sales verses a manual F mount lense with no way of reaching the digital market. Im a huge fan of film but we are in a reality check here with marketing. If you could get a new Zeiss/Sony auto focus body that all your F mount Nikon autofocus lenses would fit why not? In the same thinking youve opened the potential sales of lenses to every F body ever made verses just a market for us prefossilzed Tmaxosaurus Rex.
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C
ch1
Guest
And I guess I am the only one who still thinks that the ZF lens line will simply be a new version of Cosina F-mounts with Zeiss QC oversight. Like the new ZM lenses. Not to be "mule-headed" but I will stick with that.
Maybe when the "final answer" (a better phrase by far) is revealed we will all get back to talking about RF on the RFF!
But do you really think they will reveal it on January 18th?
Maybe when the "final answer" (a better phrase by far) is revealed we will all get back to talking about RF on the RFF!
But do you really think they will reveal it on January 18th?
bobofish
Two-fisted Atom Smasher
I don't want to beat my point into the ground, because I may well be wrong. In fact I hope I am wrong, I like competition, especially when it leads to quality.
However, I think the biggest reason why Zeiss wouldn't release an F-mount body (or Sony for that matter) is that they would open themselves up to a big lawsuit.
Even if the patents on the F-mount are gone, if they come out with a product even vaguely similar to a Nikon (autofocus, good metering, etc.) then Nikon will just sue them to keep them out of the market. And the likelyhood of Nikon nodding approvingly of a competing F-mount body is, I'd say, slim. Even if the lawsuit didn't bring anything, it would bring a lot of negative attention to Zeiss, as a copycat not capable of succeeding on their own...in addition there would be the legal fees.
If they are going to make F-mount cameras, I'd be willing to bet that the lenses will come first, and then, after a good long wait, then a pensive offering with a camera.
By the way, doesn't Sony make the sensors for the Nikon cameras? I'm curious if Sony would be willing to take a gamble that their potential F-mount slr's could rake in enough cash to offset a possible loss of their Nikon deal. But of course, since there aren't many competing sensors, maybe Nikon themselves are the real weak partner these days....?
However, I think the biggest reason why Zeiss wouldn't release an F-mount body (or Sony for that matter) is that they would open themselves up to a big lawsuit.
Even if the patents on the F-mount are gone, if they come out with a product even vaguely similar to a Nikon (autofocus, good metering, etc.) then Nikon will just sue them to keep them out of the market. And the likelyhood of Nikon nodding approvingly of a competing F-mount body is, I'd say, slim. Even if the lawsuit didn't bring anything, it would bring a lot of negative attention to Zeiss, as a copycat not capable of succeeding on their own...in addition there would be the legal fees.
If they are going to make F-mount cameras, I'd be willing to bet that the lenses will come first, and then, after a good long wait, then a pensive offering with a camera.
By the way, doesn't Sony make the sensors for the Nikon cameras? I'm curious if Sony would be willing to take a gamble that their potential F-mount slr's could rake in enough cash to offset a possible loss of their Nikon deal. But of course, since there aren't many competing sensors, maybe Nikon themselves are the real weak partner these days....?
bobofish
Two-fisted Atom Smasher
Copake,
It's possible we're all splitting hairs....if you mean that the lens barrels and focussing mechanisms will be similar, or even the same, then I think most people would be willing to acceed to your point and position.
As to the actual lens designs,(optics) I think there's about a snowman's chance in purgatory that Zeiss would be willing to use Cosina lenses for F-mount camera lenses. The F-mount is no little joke, and since Zeiss has fewer and fewer client companies these days, they're not going to play a joke with their jump into the wide world of Nikon. They will go all out, and I'm guessing they will have some very exotic lenses indeed. Cosina is fine and dandy, but a world-class optical company with more than a century of experience they ain't.
Part of the confusion is possibly in the idea that Cosina may actually be a 'big' company, and the 'senior partner' in their Zeiss cooperation. Actually, I think Cosina is quite honestly Zeiss's bitch in the Ikon business, and Zeiss won't be catering to what Cosina wants or doesn't want. If Cosina suddenly drops their F-mount lenses and all of the sudden identical Zeiss lenses show up at the corner farmer's market, I don't think the photographic world will be that exited.
It's possible we're all splitting hairs....if you mean that the lens barrels and focussing mechanisms will be similar, or even the same, then I think most people would be willing to acceed to your point and position.
As to the actual lens designs,(optics) I think there's about a snowman's chance in purgatory that Zeiss would be willing to use Cosina lenses for F-mount camera lenses. The F-mount is no little joke, and since Zeiss has fewer and fewer client companies these days, they're not going to play a joke with their jump into the wide world of Nikon. They will go all out, and I'm guessing they will have some very exotic lenses indeed. Cosina is fine and dandy, but a world-class optical company with more than a century of experience they ain't.
Part of the confusion is possibly in the idea that Cosina may actually be a 'big' company, and the 'senior partner' in their Zeiss cooperation. Actually, I think Cosina is quite honestly Zeiss's bitch in the Ikon business, and Zeiss won't be catering to what Cosina wants or doesn't want. If Cosina suddenly drops their F-mount lenses and all of the sudden identical Zeiss lenses show up at the corner farmer's market, I don't think the photographic world will be that exited.
waterlenz
Established
bobofish said:snip
I just don't see Zeiss having the money to invest in a direct competitor body to Nikon...the film market is dying for all intents and purposes, and the digital scene isn't hardly past puberty. At this point, Zeiss is most likely doing whatever they can to maintain a foothold in the camera lens biz.
snip
IQUOTE]
I gather they were depending on Kyocera to perform this end of the R&D. The N was the not-to-successful result. One only has to read a portion of the dpreview Canon and Nikon threads to realize the technologies are highly non-trivial to achieve. Zeiss' strength is in optics. Sounds like they can make better use of it by selling lenses to fit various existing mounts.
It is not clear to me who designed the view-rangefinder in the new ZI camera. The corresponding part in the M's is the heart of the camera and the product of optical know-how as well as bit of trial and error (the latter refers to the flare syndrome in M finders, which I gather has finally been solved; my M6 still flares but this may be fixable). Based on their optical expertise I would thus guess that CZ designed the range-viewfinder in the ZI. Anyone know the details?? I am hoping that Putts does a tear-down comparisosn between the M and ZI finders.
Tom
RJBender
RFF Sponsoring Member
Bryan Lee said:
I don't think so. The ZF lenses are manual focus. The lenses for Sinar have advanced electronic controls inside the lenses.
I think the ZF marketing strategy will be similar to the ZM strategy. I am no expert on Leica so correct me if I'm wrong. The ZM lenses aren't fast but they are extremely sharp and cost less than the equivalent focal length from Leica.
How will Zeiss ZF compete with Nikon F? Faster, sharper and cheaper? Slower, sharper and cheaper? Faster, sharper and more expensive?
Here is a chart of Zeiss lenses produced for Contax SLRs if that helps.
Please refer to this chart. The register distance for Contax/yashica is 45.50mm and 46.50mm for Nikon F. Read Mr. Markerink's comment on adapting lenses from one system to another:
An adaptor is always possible; some are widely available, like M42-lens->brandX-camera or T2-lens->brandX-camera. However, even custom order adaptors have to obey an optical law: the register of the lens system should be LARGER than the camera system. If the register of the lens system is SMALLER, or EQUAL (less than 1mm difference) than the camera system, the adaptor requires an optical element to make infinity focussing possible. Otherwise such an adaptor would act as a macro tube, putting the lens further away from the body than designed!
The reason you can adapt Leica R (47.00), Nikon F (46.50) and Contax/yashica (45.50) to Canon EOS is because the register distance for EOS is 44.00. If you tried to adapt Contax/yashica to Nikon F your results would be like having a 1mm extension tube between the Nikon body and Contax lens. Is it possible to use the same designs for Contax SLR lenses on the Nikon F?
R.J.
C
ch1
Guest
bobofish said:
bobofish,
I like your points. But my guess is that if Zeiss is going to distribute F-mount lenses - they are doing so within an agreement (dare I say license) from Nikon? Certainly they have no desire to start another patent war like these two firms did in the 1960's.
Lens makers have obtained licenses from Nikon to use the F-mount system for decades (e.g. Vivitar, Sigma, Tamron, and, most relevant here - Cosina etc.). It's generally in Nikon's interest to popularize its mount-system.
Admittedly the difference here is that Zeiss will presumably be offering "top shelf" quality F-mount lenses - thus going head-to-head with the high end Nikkors. This is a change, for sure. Heretofore, Nikonians have always considersed Nikkor-compatible lenses from third party producers as "inferior but more affordable" alternatives.
But consider this. The fact that Cosina has a close relationship with both Zeiss and Nikon suggests that there is a three-way arrangement going on here.
So it is in Nikon's interest as they obtain another revenue source and further establish the F-mount as a "standard".
Let's not forget that the just cancelled line of Kodak digitals used the Nikon F-mount - so we know that Nikon is also quite willing to sell its system under license - even for camera body production.
In a global economy one-time competitors become allies. Just like countries.
Regards,
George
copake_ham
Mazurka
Well-known
copake_ham said:
Mind explaining, once and for all, why the new ZM lenses are merely the Leica-mount C/V range in a pretty suit? Or are we to accept that you are the only one who don't (or refuse to) understand the meaning of "contract builder", that Cosina is capable of making lenses entirely to someone else's order?
The rest of us already had that final answer regarding the ZM lenses even back in 2004.
RJBender
RFF Sponsoring Member
Socke said:
Volker, danke for the translation. It was 5:00 AM your time when I wrote that post.
R.J.