What's up at Fuji - PMA 2008

FrankS said:
RXMD, just wondering, how would you have designed a MF folder?
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I don't know. I'm not a designer either and in this thread the temptation is of course to come up with a lot of ideas for an anti-1950s folder. 🙂 Anyway here's a couple of ideas for a somewhat different MF folder, some of them with notes on feasibility:

(1) Body design:
(1.1) Angular, maybe with a slightly molded grip but not too prominent. The Makina 67 had a brilliantly designed body, and so had the 1970s/1980s Agfa Optimas in 35mm. Take this as a model.
(1.2) Lens standard with a sideway fold-out for sturdiness. This kind of lens mount will always be somewhat flimsy but we can look to minimize the flimsiness. The GS645 was pretty decent in this respect.

(2) Controls:
(2.1) Lever wind.
(2.2) If we're building an electronic camera anyway we can also think about motor wind, which would be cool, and if Konica can do it in an M-sized body then it's possible in a compact medium-format body as well. But it's not really necessary. Rewind isn't necessary anyway.
(2.3) An M5-style control wheel, slightly protruding to the front, with the rewind lever on top and the shutter release button in the middle.
(2.4) Depending on how much you want the electronics to influence the user interface, either engrave shutter speeds on the control wheel and add an extra ISO control. Then you have a camera with a completely classic user interface. Or you can leave the control wheel blank and add a couple of T90-style buttons at the back for thumb usage (such as one for ISO, one for exposure compensation, etc.), then you have a camera with a user interface more like 1990s SLRs. After using a T90 for a while I'd prefer the latter, but I guess most users here would choose the former. Either way, there could be a flap somewhere with one or two buttons or a little joystick underneath it for rangefinder calibration.

(3) Rangefinder / Lenses.
(3.1) If you want to build an electronic camera anyway, like this already is designed to be, you can embrace electronics all the way instead of just building AE into it and otherwise pretending it's manual. Such as:
(3.2) Optical rangefinder, with framelines, but with electronic actuation of the rangefinder patch. This is pretty trivial to do, just needs an actuator in place of the RF transfer mechanism from the lens. Information from the lens is transferred electronically. This needs a sensor in the helical, but it's trivial to do as well; any AF lens has this built in, and nowadays it's easier and cheaper to do this reliably than a mechanical linkage.
(3.3) Electronic leaf shutter built into the lens. A focal plane shutter would be cooler but it would also make the body bigger which we don't want. Aperture-priority AE.
(3.4) And now the point of 1.1 to 1.3 above: Interchangeable lenses, Mamiya TLR-style in a twist-lock bayonet mount built into the front standard, only with just one lens instead of two. With the shutter built into the lens this is pretty easy. Mechanically there's not much happening anyway because all data transfer is electronic. There are plenty of systems that have this kind of body-lens connection nowadays with electronic shutters, from newer Hasselblads to the Rollei 6000 series. Metering cell on the lens, so that filters are automatically compensated for and the metering pattern can be designed for every lens individually.
(3.5) Because data transfer is electronic and the rangefinder is electronic, the rangefinder can adapt to the focal length of the lens automatically. Standard issue would be a 55, an 80 and a 135 or something like this. It also makes it possible to build an autofocus lens at some point in the future if anyone is ever interested in that.
(3.6) Electronic framelines using a LED system. Automatic parallax compensation, automatic compensation of FOV shrinkage, less mechanical trouble, no problems with display in the dark, easy adaptation to whatever focal length you want to produce in the future.
(3.7) We'll need a couple of batteries. Not too much because there's not many motors etc. The Hexar RF shows that they don't need to be big even if the camera is motorized. Have the thing run off two flat standard batteries, with a battery compartment accessible from the bottom (next to one of the rolls of film), from the side or even at the top next to the hot shoe where the electronics are.
(3.8) This is not really design, rather thinking about features, but if we're building electronics into the camera anyway, have the camera print exposure information in the film margin like the newer 645 bodies do.

These are just a couple of ideas for an MF folding camera that aims less to recreate a 1950s look and interface concept, and more to produce the best possible film camera given what's possible today. This is of course a completely different camera, but it seems more interesting to me. However I guess whoever here is interested in recreating a 1950s camera wouldn't be too interested in this beast 😉

Philipp
 
Incidentally over in a German forum people are discussing whether what Fuji is presenting here is an actual camera at all or just a design study in a block of plastic with some metal parts bolted on. The fact that it's apparently under glass supports this hypothesis; whoever has ever been to a major camera show knows that this kind of thing tends to stand around. The Pentax 645 Digital has been exhibited in various incarnations of this state for years, as a wooden block or as a plastic block.

Philipp
 
RXMD, it sounds to me that your suggested improvements would add greater complexity, weight, and expense, none of which I'd be happy with. IMO
 
FrankS said:
RXMD, it sounds to me that your suggested improvements would add greater complexity, weight, and expense, none of which I'd be happy with. IMO
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Well, given that we haven't seen any specifications on weight for this Fuji (let alone a statement whether this is a camera or just a design study, or a suggested retail price), any discussion on weight and price doesn't seem to make a lot of sense at this point.

The interchangeable lens mount would be more complex. Then again interchangeable lenses would be worth it. The finder and rangefinder would probably be even less complex because you'd need less mechanical linkages. Remember how in the AE-1 the introduction of a microprocessor reduced the overall parts count by some 400 parts?

As I said, it's a completely different camera, and probably I'm also motivated by a somewhat different idea of what a camera should be all about. That's fine. Different strokes for different folks again.

Philipp
 
Hmm..I like the idea, in fact I like knob winding anyway, especially with 120 film. I don't care if it's retro or not, I prefer a simple camera anyway.

New MINI is a better car than the old one. It doesn't have to look like an old one.
 
At least people are talking about it. Hopefully Fuji is listening.

BTW I don't think I've mentioned that I like it. The whole reason I bought a folder was because I wanted a good quality, portable MF camera. I really didn't care about the retro nature of it or anything, so this camera really appeals to me. Of course, i'm sure it's out of my price range.
 
rxmd said:
Well, given that we haven't seen any specifications on weight for this Fuji (let alone a statement whether this is a camera or just a design study, or a suggested retail price), any discussion on weight and price doesn't seem to make a lot of sense at this point.

The interchangeable lens mount would be more complex. Then again interchangeable lenses would be worth it. The finder and rangefinder would probably be even less complex because you'd need less mechanical linkages. Remember how in the AE-1 the introduction of a microprocessor reduced the overall parts count by some 400 parts?

As I said, it's a completely different camera, and probably I'm also motivated by a somewhat different idea of what a camera should be all about. That's fine. Different strokes for different folks again.

Philipp
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That's likely the issue Philipp: you're looking for a kind of camera that this Fuji is not trying to be. I see it as a modern simple, light as possible, small as possible medium format camera. The idea of a built in motor drive for example, on such a camera is at cross-purposes to the designers' intent for THIS particular camera. Weight and price can be discussed in relative terms. The changes to the camera that you've suggested would increase both beyond what they would be as is.
 
I can live with the knob winding, but please make this camera quiet. By this I mean that hopefully Fuji will avoid the clack that emanates from the the bottom of my GW690 III each time you release the shutter.

The Copal leaf-shutter is quiet, but the mechanism that keeps track of the number of shutter activations on the GW 690 series is not.
 
to me, it would be a great little camera no matter what lens they put on it.

from the photos and pure speculation, it looks like it will have a built in meter and aperture priority.

I will buy it no matter.
 
FrankS said:
The changes to the camera that you've suggested would increase both beyond what they would be as is.
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I don't think I've suggested changes so much as a completely different concept. 🙂

FrankS said:
That's likely the issue Philipp: you're looking for a kind of camera that this Fuji is not trying to be.
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That's right.

On the other hand this is not only supposed to be a small, compact, simple, pocketable MF rangefinder. It's also specifically designed to appeal to people who liked the folders from the golden age of consumer medium format cameras. The knob is a dead giveway.

If you want to build a simple robust phone, you can build a phone, or you can build a phone with a rotary dial and an electromagnetic bell. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, it's just not my cup of tea. If I wanted an old phone, my first instinct would be to get an old phone. I don't mind using a classic, in fact I like it, but I do like usability (no knob for me) and I wouldn't want a modern knock-off just because using it is like using a classic.

Philipp
 
Right, rxmd, you're talking about a different concept for a camera. Well, this Fuji isn't it for you. You're thinking /interested in a different camera. Many others, myself included however, are interested in the concept of this Fuji. Hopefully your train will be along shortly. 🙂
 
FrankS said:
Well, this Fuji isn't it for you. You're thinking /interested in a different camera. Many others, myself included however, are interested in the concept of this Fuji. Hopefully your train will be along shortly. 🙂
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I'm not holding my breath 😉

Philipp
 
I like it and if it is priced right I may get one (black).

It could use an advance lever, but the knob isn't the end of the world. For one thing it's not exactly a rapid fire camera. Back in the old days photojournalists would roll the rewind knob against the inside of their hand. You would be amazed how fast that works. I can do it with my IIIc and it's no problem.

Hopefully the framelines in the viewfinder are corrected for parallax and the RF patch moves with them. If I remember correctly on some of their earlier 6x7 and 6x9 cameras they even compensated for the change in lens magnification, between close up and infinity, which even a Leica won't do.

Other than that I hope the weight is low. A single coated lens would be a bonus...

I like the simplicity of it. You really don't need much more than shutter, aperture controls and a good hair trigger on the shutter release.

I hope this camera is a success. it would signal to other manufacturers that there still is an adequate demand for a good film camera.

Other than that I would like to see a miniature version in 6x4.5. Maybe with a f2.8/75mm lens
 
For whoever was asking about 'more portable', for 20 dollars, you can get a Holga, which offers many 'on paper' benefits, such as lightweight, 60mm lens, small footprint, and worldwide acceptance. And in direct response to rxmd, the holga is actually a block of plastic as well as a functioning camera, haha.

If Fuji does price this camera super high, I'll probably spitefully commission someone to clean up an Ikonta or Bessa for me at less than half the price instead ;-)
 
luketrash said:
If Fuji does price this camera super high, I'll probably spitefully commission someone to clean up an Ikonta or Bessa for me at less than half the price instead ;-)
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More like 1/5. Super Ikontas are just about the best folders on the planet and regularly sell for under 200 EUR here. I sold mine for 220 EUR or so (to Jürgen Kreckel, who's likely sold it on).

Philipp
 
In light of the fact that rxmd is interested in a different camera concept, it is rather off-track to complain about the feature set of this Fuji, which is clearly not the kind of camera rxmd is interested in. It would be like complaining about the Fuji GX680, designed to be a studio camera (though some have taken it into the street) that it lacks portability and ease of use with a single hand. It just wasn't designed for that application. This folding Fuji, seems almost perfectly designed for a simple, small, light, MF folding camera. Wind on knobs for MF cameras may be a better idea than a lever, and not just a retro affectation.
 
Phillip- Design-wise this does seem a bit out of sorts with the last offering from Fuji, I'll give you that. But cosmetics are low on the list for me when it comes to a camera, it's function first. I like the small size and the AE- a useful thing at times. Knob wind isn't high on my list of good features, but not awful- after owning the 645 folder and a Pentax 67, I don't think any camera of this format is going to be 'fast'. I would much prefer a 6x6, but will absolutely consider this as a portable MF with good glass and AE to boot. But as has been stated elsewhere I'm no huge fan of MF. 67 certainly does make it better in my mind than 645, but a square would make it better still.
 
This new proposed folding Fuji is a blend of the best features from a GS645Pro (compact folder and built in meter) and a GW670II (big 6x7 neg size), as well as adding AE.
 
Whatever you think about this camera isn't it great that a new 6x7 MF Folder can generate all these posts on this forum. It says a lot for the core of this place that this has happened without 'Noctilux' 'M8' or 'street' being mentioned once.

Bravo ... and I want one too! 😛
 
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