Where to buy used MF digital?

[Avotius]

Got a decent thing around the corner.......however I cannot for the life of me convince the check writer that a modern DSLR like a 5DmkII or a medium or large format film camera would more than meet his expectations for....get this......a paper back sized book.

After ripping out my hair with days of work showing him that it was not a problem to print 10x7 centimeters with little more than a basic camera, he insists the project needs to be "shot in HD" ie....medium format digital.

Doh.

So.......its a lucrative project so it is worth the investment of picking up a medium format digital back, and hell I can always turn around and sell it afterwords.

I looked in the usual places, B&H and what not but did not find anything. I also considered renting but I was shocked how much it would cost, 7 days rental and I could just buy one instead.

So....what are the best bets for used MF digital buys?

 

[ChrisN]

I'd keep an eye on the GetDPI forum classifieds. Their motto is "Buy now explain later".

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=29

 

[Jamie123]

The best places are probably the classifieds on GetDPI and Luminous Landscape (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/).

 

[Jamie123]

Got a decent thing around the corner.......however I cannot for the life of me convince the check writer that a modern DSLR like a 5DmkII or a medium or large format film camera would more than meet his expectations for....get this......a paper back sized book.

After ripping out my hair with days of work showing him that it was not a problem to print 10x7 centimeters with little more than a basic camera, he insists the project needs to be "shot in HD" ie....medium format digital.

Doh.

So.......its a lucrative project so it is worth the investment of picking up a medium format digital back, and hell I can always turn around and sell it afterwords.

I looked in the usual places, B&H and what not but did not find anything. I also considered renting but I was shocked how much it would cost, 7 days rental and I could just buy one instead.

So....what are the best bets for used MF digital buys?

I strongly suggest that, if you buy one, you bill exactly what it would cost to rent the same back for the duration of the job.

Don't be fooled, though, mf backs have a bit of a learning curve. Firstly, keep in mind that you'll most likely have to shoot it at either ISO50 or ISO100, especially if you want to use it at full res. Also, if you get a back for, let's say a 503CW Hasselblad or a LF camera, you'll have to 'wake up' the back before every shot. If you shoot static objects that's ok but not if you want to do portraits. What's longest exposure you'll be doing? Some backs are quite limited in that regard.

Have you explained to him that a Canon 5DII is already a lot more than 'HD' in tv screen terms? If he wants the highest resolution possible you'd have to get a Phase One P65+ which, in my neck of the woods, is about $500/day to rent. Are you sure there's no way to convice him that your camera is good enough? Sometimes it's just the way you sell it. Don't tell him it's ''good enough'' for this project, tell him that the quality of that Canon is amazing and that the files and that for this kind of project a digital mf back would have considerable drawbacks. Don't try to convince him with reason, convince him with BS.
What's the budget on this job if you don't mind me asking (send me a pm if you don't want to disclose it publicly)? If he's so keen on getting 'the best' I'd say milk that cow for as much as it's worth. Get yourself a nice mf digital back and make him pay for it.

 

[Frank Petronio]

Don't forget to charge for the "workstation" rental or usage too, many togs charge for a technician's time as well. Bigger files, slower operation, more powerful computer - all need to be factored in.

It's all for show. Welcome to commercial photography. I once shot a catalog using 4x5 when the reproduction size was a reduction, hahaha.

 

[Avotius]

Don't be fooled, though, mf backs have a bit of a learning curve. Firstly, keep in mind that you'll most likely have to shoot it at either ISO50 or ISO100, especially if you want to use it at full res. Also, if you get a back for, let's say a 503CW Hasselblad or a LF camera, you'll have to 'wake up' the back before every shot. If you shoot static objects that's ok but not if you want to do portraits. What's longest exposure you'll be doing? Some backs are quite limited in that regard.

Have you explained to him that a Canon 5DII is already a lot more than 'HD' in tv screen terms? If he wants the highest resolution possible you'd have to get a Phase One P65+ which, in my neck of the woods, is about $500/day to rent. Are you sure there's no way to convice him that your camera is good enough? Sometimes it's just the way you sell it. Don't tell him it's ''good enough'' for this project, tell him that the quality of that Canon is amazing and that the files and that for this kind of project a digital mf back would have considerable drawbacks. Don't try to convince him with reason, convince him with BS.
What's the budget on this job if you don't mind me asking (send me a pm if you don't want to disclose it publicly)? If he's so keen on getting 'the best' I'd say milk that cow for as much as it's worth. Get yourself a nice mf digital back and make him pay for it.

Not to worry, I have used medium format backs before, particularly a Phase one H25 which was a real pain in the ass because you HAD to use it tethered to firewire and if the connection become just a little loose the camera shut off.

I looked into renting, the best I could find was the 30 some megapixle back, whatever it was called, for 6500 yuan a day which is about the same as 783 dollars. If I could get my hands on a P65+ for 500 a day I would not hesitate and bill him double the renting fee.

My budget for the job is pretty open. I planned to charge the fellow 8000-9000 yuan for 4 different subjects with front back side shots and a few detail shots as well with a combo of digital and 4x5 film. I figured my cost would be around 1000-2000 after I pay the assistants, develop and scan and what not. But the whole thing was just the first of a series that we would write up a contract on for about 15-20 future shoots in the next year and a half in the same range.

I fear I may have tried to convince him with sensibility on this project, usually that works well here as people are tight with their money and are always looking to screw whoever they can on every yuan they can. Actually one of my friends who also works with this guy said he is one of those brand name show offs so Canon doesnt sound as good as Hasselblad, and EF doesnt sound as good as Distagon....etc etc etc...

Actually I may have a avenue to milk him for a digital, maybe a Pentax 645D or a Mamiya 645 with a back of some sort. Working on it 😉

Don't forget to charge for the "workstation" rental or usage too, many togs charge for a technician's time as well. Bigger files, slower operation, more powerful computer - all need to be factored in.

It's all for show. Welcome to commercial photography. I once shot a catalog using 4x5 when the reproduction size was a reduction, hahaha.

Commercial photography is funny that way isn't it? It is a lot of show, a lot of "shock and awe".....anyway yes, there is a technical charge included in my bill to the guy, actually he doesn't care about those details it turns out.

 

[aizan]

surely, nothing but a leica s2 will do! *hint*hint*

 

[Traut]

The cheapest option

The cheapest option

I just sent you a PM for the lowest cost MF digital option you will find.

 

[Avotius]

surely, nothing but a leica s2 will do! *hint*hint*

Oh dont get me on that! haha

Yes if I had unlimited money I *might* consider it but........ :bang:

 

[Jamie123]

Not to worry, I have used medium format backs before, particularly a Phase one H25 which was a real pain in the ass because you HAD to use it tethered to firewire and if the connection become just a little loose the camera shut off.

I looked into renting, the best I could find was the 30 some megapixle back, whatever it was called, for 6500 yuan a day which is about the same as 783 dollars. If I could get my hands on a P65+ for 500 a day I would not hesitate and bill him double the renting fee.

My budget for the job is pretty open. I planned to charge the fellow 8000-9000 yuan for 4 different subjects with front back side shots and a few detail shots as well with a combo of digital and 4x5 film. I figured my cost would be around 1000-2000 after I pay the assistants, develop and scan and what not. But the whole thing was just the first of a series that we would write up a contract on for about 15-20 future shoots in the next year and a half in the same range.

Actually I may have a avenue to milk him for a digital, maybe a Pentax 645D or a Mamiya 645 with a back of some sort. Working on it 😉

Sorry, but am I understanding this right? My currency converter shows that 9000 yuan are about $1300. Even multiplied by 20 that's not much given the amount of work and that it includes assistants and gear. And you say your share for each assignment is around 1000-2000 yuan which, if I'm correct, is about $150-300? That's not even an editorial fee in most markets and you're considering buying an mf digital back? I mean I realize that maybe the price relations for China are different but Hasselblad or Phase One are not Chinese companies with prices that reflect that market.
Any decent digital mf that's better than the Canon will run you around $10k. And that's probably without lenses.

Am I misunderstanding something here? Are my numbers wrong? Because the way I see it this doesn't sound like a good deal at all.

 

[Avotius]

No I figured my out of pocket cost would be 1000-2000 after this and that. For 100 some dollars for a shoot that big I would just stay home.

The end sum in my pocket is equal to about 24 years of typical wages for 1.5 years, not to mention other jobs I picked up in between.

For China, thats not bad.

 

[Jamie123]

No I figured my out of pocket cost would be 1000-2000 after this and that. For 100 some dollars for a shoot that big I would just stay home.

The end sum in my pocket is equal to about 24 years of typical wages for 1.5 years, not to mention other jobs I picked up in between.

For China, thats not bad.

Oh ok, I misunderstood then. So that's about $800-1000/each shoot. I understand that that's a lot of money for China but it still doesn't warrant spending $10k for a digital back. If the client wants you to work with a back that costs $750/day in your market then you shouldn't be working for $1000/day. Just my 2 cents.

PS: have you thought about just getting a few Zeiss lenses for your Canon and feeding him some BS like ''the Germans make better lenses but the Japanese make better sensors". Nevermind that the Zeiss lenses aren't made in Germany, he doesn't have to know 🙂

 

[Spleenrippa]

1) Get a shoebox
2) paint it a nice color and stick 'hasselblad' somewhere on it
3) place Canon inside box, lens protruding
4) shoot, but charge Hassy prices. He'll still be amazed by the quality

 

[Avotius]

Oh ok, I misunderstood then. So that's about $800-1000/each shoot. I understand that that's a lot of money for China but it still doesn't warrant spending $10k for a digital back. If the client wants you to work with a back that costs $750/day in your market then you shouldn't be working for $1000/day. Just my 2 cents.

PS: have you thought about just getting a few Zeiss lenses for your Canon and feeding him some BS like ''the Germans make better lenses but the Japanese make better sensors". Nevermind that the Zeiss lenses aren't made in Germany, he doesn't have to know 🙂

Oh believe me, even at that price, it is wildly expensive for a shoot! Most photographers here who do commercial stuff charge about 30-50 yuan per photo, on average delivering 10-20 photos. You think I am not making much.....! Its all a problem of there are too many people willing to undercut the next guy on price, to the point where it takes them 10 years just to pay for their Canon 350D they bought 4 years ago. I really dont understand how they can survive on that.....

The only reason I get away with charging so much is because I am not Chinese.

And yes, I have considered getting Zeiss lenses, especially as I need a close focus longer lens, like something around 100mm....ehem....

 

[Jamie123]

Oh believe me, even at that price, it is wildly expensive for a shoot! Most photographers here who do commercial stuff charge about 30-50 yuan per photo, on average delivering 10-20 photos. You think I am not making much.....! Its all a problem of there are too many people willing to undercut the next guy on price, to the point where it takes them 10 years just to pay for their Canon 350D they bought 4 years ago. I really dont understand how they can survive on that.....

The only reason I get away with charging so much is because I am not Chinese.

Do these other photographers who charge 30-50 yuan per photo work with digital medium format gear? It just sounds ludicrous to me to charge 8000 yuan for a job where the camera alone costs 6500 to rent in your market.
You say you get away with charging a lot because you're not Chinese. Well, that's exactly it. He wants a non-Chinese photographer to work with gear that's not usual for this kind of work in China so he should also have to pay non-Chinese prices. But hey, that's just me.

Personally, I would never tell a client what kind of gear I'm using. The client tells me what kind of resolution and file format he needs and he'll get that resolution. Everything else is none of his business.

Edit: Forgot to add: Normally I'd say just buy a back and then sell it again after the job but since we're talking about a series of assignments that spreads over 1.5 years this is less than idea. Not only are we talking about serious depreciation of the gear but you'll also have at least $10k tied up for a long time. Maybe even without warranty as a used back in that price range won't be the newest.