Where to now for the foveon sensor ... ?

[Keith]

Without a doubt the Sigma Merrils are landmark cameras ... known for their chronic battery life, extremely poor write speed, below par high ISO performance and so on ... but the people who own them generally love and revere them in spite of these short comings.

The sensor is the key ... it doesn't take a persistant user too long to realise that the Merrill sensor more than makes up for all of the above but has that now gone with the new generation of Quattro cameras? Considering how long the Quattro has been out I'm not really seeing a lot of interest in the camera here at RFF and certainly not seeing many images in threads or in the gallery.

Was it all about the Merrill sensor ... have they destroyed the magic with the new generation cameras?

 

[fireblade]

Without a doubt the Sigma Merrils are landmark cameras ... known for their chronic battery life, extremely poor write speed, below par high ISO performance and so on ... but the people who own them generally love and revere them in spite of these short comings.

battery life isn't a issue for me, carry 2 spares anyways, write speed is not an issue, i don't use machine gun trigger nor should this camera be used for such and as for high ISO, i don't go out in the dark with it.

The sensor is the key ... it doesn't take a persistant user too long to realise that the Merrill sensor more than makes up for all of the above but has that now gone with the new generation of Quattro cameras? Considering how long the Quattro has been out I'm not really seeing a lot of interest in the camera here at RFF and certainly not seeing many images in threads or in the gallery.

i don't believe the Q is heads above the M for the money, and it ain't, and as the internet has shown it is not earth shattering, can we say the Q is a failure, in comparing it to the M and not as a stand alone.

Was it all about the Merrill sensor ... have they destroyed the magic with the new generation cameras?

yes

............................they wanted at least 10 characters

 

[GaryLH]

There seems to be a lot of foveon perfectionist out there IMHO. The Quattro is definitely a change to say the least. Having all five of the Sigma cameras (dp 1, 2, 3 and sd1 Merrill plus the dp2 Quattro). While I hate the sd card door design, I am perfectly happy w/ the dp2q. I may even pick up a sd1 Quattro.

People complain that the Quattro does not have the 1-1-1 (RGB) of the Merrill and thus color is not accurate. The mega pixels is less (40 vs 45). It has an odd looking body and there is still no evf. It doesn't fit in my camera bag.

Ok here is what I know
- af is twice as fast
- iso is at leat one stop better, color or BW.
- sd write has improved, still not the best out there
- yes 1-1-4 (RGB) color is not as accurate as Merrill 1-1-1, but still better than any Bayer or xtran array camera
- u can still get 1-1-1 on a Quattro by simply using small raw (5mp - 15mp foveon speak)
-- yes u can't blow up as big... I for one am perfectly happy w/ this smaller raw file
-- small raw file means faster sd write times
- better battery life
- the ooc jpg output is superior to the Merrill
-- I can use the ooc jpg about over 95% of the time, so spp time is very much reduced

I currently tend to use the Merrill cameras for landscape work and the Quattro for more general picture taking. I shoot about 99% small raw out of the Quattro. I probably use my Quattro about 3 times more than any of the Merrill cameras. I really don't need to print large, so I don't care about large raw. For those that print large, I understand why the Quattro may not be for u.

I've got other cameras to handle my needs in other areas...but the Sigma foveon sensor cameras always bring a smile to my face whether it is the Merrill or Quattro cameras. I will be interested in seeing what that new sd1 Quattro will look like.

Some people are going to hate the new shape and I really don't blame them. Some may never adapt to the new grip design. It took me one day to adapt. I have rrs grip on my dp1 and 2 Merrill camera as a point of reference.

I guess I will start a Quattro picture thread... Hopefully, others may join me one day 😀

Gary

 

[Keith]

There seems to be a lot of foveon perfectionist out there IMHO. The Quattro is definitely a change to say the least. Having all five of the Sigma cameras (dp 1, 2, 3 and sd1 Merrill plus the dp2 Quattro). While I hate the sd card door design, I am perfectly happy w/ the dp2q. I may even pick up a sd1 Quattro.

People complain that the Quattro does not have the 1-1-1 (RGB) of the Merrill and thus color is not accurate. The mega pixels is less (40 vs 45). It has an odd looking body and there is still no evf. It doesn't fit in my camera bag.

Ok here is what I know
- af is twice as fast
- iso is at leat one stop better, color or BW.
- sd write has improved, still not the best out there
- yes 1-1-4 (RGB) color is not as accurate as Merrill 1-1-1, but still better than any Bayer or xtran array camera
- u can still get 1-1-1 on a Quattro by simply using small raw (5mp - 15mp foveon speak)
-- yes u can't blow up as big... I for one am perfectly happy w/ this smaller raw file
-- small raw file means faster sd write times
- better battery life
- the ooc jpg output is superior to the Merrill
-- I can use the ooc jpg about over 95% of the time, so spp time is very much reduced

I currently tend to use the Merrill cameras for landscape work and the Quattro for more general picture taking. I shoot about 99% small raw out of the Quattro. I probably use my Quattro about 3 times more than any of the Merrill cameras. I really don't need to print large, so I don't care about large raw. For those that print large, I understand why the Quattro may not be for u.

I've got other cameras to handle my needs in other areas...but the Sigma foveon sensor cameras always bring a smile to my face whether it is the Merrill or Quattro cameras. I will be interested in seeing what that new sd1 Quattro will look like.

Some people are going to hate the new shape and I really don't blame them. Some may never adapt to the new grip design. It took me one day to adapt. I have rrs grip on my dp1 and 2 Merrill camera as a point of reference.

I guess I will start a Quattro picture thread... Hopefully, others may join me one day 😀

Gary

That's an excellent idea Gary! 🙂

 

[GaryLH]

Forgot to mention...

To me, when in small raw mode.. The Quattro is just as accurate as the Merrill. The 4 blue receptors above the green and red ones appear to be averaged to create a 1-1-1 in small raw. While in large raw, those four blue receptors must go thru a algo similar to the Bayer sensor one. Thus the main reason everyone hates the new camera. Not a single review site ever did a test of the small raw that I am aware of. People just don't like to lose mp 🙁, but in reality how big do u really print?

I find the awb of the dp1 and 2 Merrill was slightly off, but the dp3 Merrill was better. To me, while the Quattro wb is still slightly off, in most cases it does a better job then the dp1 and 2..

Gary

 

[bonatto]

How about full frame foveon in an Epson R-D body for under U$3k? I took some of my favorite photographs with a DP2, just wish it wasn't such a dog to use.

 

[helen.HH]

The way the Merrills render are a thing of Beauty...
No other sensor can touch it !
The B&W is sublime

Never tried a Quattro, so hard for me to compare
Its just such an ugly looking odd shaped camera ( Apologies Gary,:angel🙂
that I could not possibly even give it a go 😱

 

[GaryLH]

No problems, Helen 🙂

Gary

 

[Keith]

Thus the main reason everyone hates the new camera.

I don't think people hate the camera ... well maybe some do! It just seems to have gone in a direction that has failed to capture any real affection ... which was a big part of the Merrill's success IMO.

 

[Keith]

One of the worrying aspects of the lack of success with the Quattro could be Sigma's reaction. They are not a big manufacturer who can afford to financially absorb failed attempts and move on to the next design in the way Nikon Canon or Fuji can.

Their SD1M is a very good camera but it also tanked ... I'd be surprised if they ever make another DSLR!

 

[bonatto]

One of the worrying aspects of the lack of success with the Quattro could be Sigma's reaction. They are not a big manufacturer who can afford to financially absorb failed attempts and move on to the next design in the way Nikon Canon or Fuji can.

Their SD1M is a very good camera but it also tanked ... I'd be surprised if they ever make another DSLR!

I always thought they should stop trying to re-invent the wheel and do something commercially meaningful with their technology, but maybe they're happy being a proof of concept type of company, who knows.

 

[Keith]

I always thought they should stop trying to re-invent the wheel and do something commercially meaningful with their technology, but maybe they're happy being a proof of concept type of company, who knows.

I guess this is where their lens manufacturing fits in. Their latest generation of DSLR lenses have received very good reviews and are obviously selling very well ... and for good reason. I have a couple of their 'Art' lenses and the build quality and optical performance are as good as anything I own.

 

[GaryLH]

During an interview w/ the Sigma CEO about 2-4 weeks ago he mentioned they were currently working on the Quattro version of the sd1.

While the Quattro has not done well... As I remember, the Merrill also had a slow start... The original sd1 pricing was a disaster (some of the smaller stores in comments have said they left Sigma because of eating the price of that camera). The sd1 Merrill pricing was more in line w/ reality..but I don't think they ever recovered completely from that.

The dp Merrill did not take off immediately either....but eventually it did very well.

I think one of the problems really was Sigma's "try before u buy a dp2 Quattro", was a brave but foolish marketing scheme. The main problem was spp was note ready for prime time. It took till version 6.1 to stabilize plus several fw updates were needed after the trial period. They rushed the Quattro out..too soon. While I eventually bought a Quattro, those initial comments from those who partook of the trial put me off to say the least.

While b&h had a fire sale on the dp2q for under 500, then about three days later up'd it to 599, and less than two weeks later it is back up to 999. B&h was the only one with excess inventory that needed to be reduced. I think at the right price it will sell well..maybe not 999, that for sure...

Gary

 

[Keith]

During an interview w/ the Sigma CEO about 2-4 weeks ago he mentioned they were currently working on the Quattro version of the sd1.

While the Quattro has not done well... As I remember, the Merrill also had a slow start... The original sd1 pricing was a disaster (some of the smaller stores in comments have said they left Sigma because of eating the price of that camera). The sd1 Merrill pricing was more in line w/ reality..but I don't think they ever recovered completely from that.

The dp Merrill did not take off immediately either....but eventually it did very well.

I think one of the problems really was Sigma's "try before u buy a dp2 Quattro", was a brave but foolish marketing scheme. The main problem was spp was note ready for prime time. It took till version 6.1 to stabilize plus several fw updates were needed after the trial period. They rushed the Quattro out..too soon. While I eventually bought a Quattro, those initial comments from those who partook of the trial put me off to say the least.

While b&h had a fire sale on the dp2q for under 500, then about three days later up'd it to 599, and less than two weeks later it is back up to 999. B&h was the only one with excess inventory that needed to be reduced. I think at the right price it will sell well..maybe not 999, that for sure...

Gary

It would be good if they continue with the SD1 (Q?). In spite of a few short comings they are a very nice DSLR with one of the smoothest, quietest shutters I've used. Live view would be a nice addition ... as would full frame. 🙂

But with Nikon and Canon apparently/probably heading towards mirrorless full frame designs they need to be cautious continuing to produce a camera that will have to survive in a diminishing market.

 

[GaryLH]

As I think about it... Back in the days of film.. Kodachrome looked different then Etachrome and it looked different then fujichrome or agfachrome for that matter. Some say the same these days about the look in digital about the m9 vs m240 or the look of the Fuji x cameras..etc..etc.

I guess at the end of the day, while color accuracy matters, for me..I just like the look whether from small or large raw. IMHO...if your happy w/ the look, does it matter.

Gary

 

[jarski]

Their SD1M is a very good camera but it also tanked ... I'd be surprised if they ever make another DSLR!

Hope they do. Digital cameras and Foveon were the thing previous CEO introduced. now his son is running the company.

if Sigma fixed the autofocus and design better finder, that would be bigger deal for me than this Merrill vs Quatro issue. after a year with SD, sold it and bought an ancient Canon 5D (had unused lenses waiting). was stunned how fast focus snaps in compared to Sigma 🙂

but looking back the images, ones made with Foveon have extra dose of life that none of my other cameras record.

 

[Spanik]

Got a DP1m and DP2m and don't really know what to do with them nor what position to take.

Battery life is an issue when travelling but otherwise manageable. Likewise the speed, compared to a MF camera this is acceptable. The problem for me is high iso performance and the missing viewfinder. I'm too often in a position where there is little light and you can/may not use a tripod and/or flash. Outside with plenty of sun the output is just wonderfull. But once you come home with a lot of photo's processing is just too trying of my patience.

What I do not understand at all in this story is why one of the largest lensmakers seems to be incapable of providing a compelling lensline for their own cameras. A DP with interchagable lenses like the 19, 30 and 60 they make for E-mount would have had more success than the DP's they make. Even for the SD1m it is a rather meagre list compared to what they make for others.

Great technology, great possibilities but they're not a cameramaker and missed their chance.

 

[sevo]

For all its disadvantages, it seems to have reduced the spectral flaws (sometimes causing horrible colour rendering of dominant colours) of the original Foveon sensors. Only time will tell whether they were better off with a odd but unique sensor rather than one whose advantages and disadvantages are growing close to the general mainstream. Personally I don't see much sense in the latter, but then I prefer odd and unpopular things and am not really the test person you'd want to adjust your mass marketing to...

 

[rbelyell]

these are niche products at best, no? why make them even a smaller niche by excluding a vf? the average consumer is not buying this, so its really for gearheads/enthusiasts. i love foveon, was an early dslr adopter but gave it up because of the horrid ergonomics. i would LOVE a foveon option in my bag, but lack of vf is a nonstarter. in the enthusiast world i cannot be the sole person to whom that applies. yes, it doesnt apply to some, but i bet there is a significant number who feel as i do. just add a freaking vf, how hard can it be?

 

[Michael Markey]

I stuck a 50 in the hot shoe of my DP2M and a 90 on the DP3M.
Works fine...