Which 35mm Rangefinder? Contax G1 or Bessa R

S

Stu :)

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>>>Warning: Minor Novel Here<<<

Hiya all,

I guess this question has been asked a hundred times already and I'm famous for not getting the right info out of search engines.

Anyhow, after an eternity of 35mm SLRs and cheap zooms someone introduced to me to the wonder that is 35mm Rangefinder cameras in mid 2002. So I got myself a Canon QL17 for $10 shortly afterwards and the corruption began. So in October last year I got brave and started to sell off my Canon EOS gear. By January I had sold it all, bought the necessary new Hasselblad lens and with the left over cash buy a 35mm rangefinder system. So I made a list/chart thingy in December with Hasselblad Xpan/Fuji TX1, Bessa R, Bessa R2, Leica M3/M6, Canon P and Konica Hexar on it. Then over time did some research into each, read feed back and got options on each one, and according marked the chart with positives and negatives.

Well to my surprise the Voigtlander Bessa R won (I was gunning for the Xpan originally). So I decided that's what I would buy. However I completely forgot the Contax G series cameras. After a quick eleventh hour comparison, I'm stuck!

Here's the sticky points-
Cost:
A Contax G1 2nd hand costs the same as a new Voigtlander Bessa R!
The Contax G lenses seem reasonably priced 2nd hand and on par with new prices for Cosina Voigtlander lenses

Lens Choice:
Bessa R uses 39mm LTM mount, so lens choice is much greater
Being a proud 6x6 Hasselblad owner, I'm already know how good Carl Zeiss optics are and Contax use Zeiss glass... however I don't see a little red T* on the Voigtlander lenses
I use to own a Tamron 14mm f2.8 for my EOS cameras, which I miss terribly, so...
15mm f4.5 for the Bessa R - $349 ~ 16mm f8 for the Contax - $2500 (unless the 15mm f4.5 Contax mount lens that Stephan Gandy sells will fit the Contax G camera bodies or do what everyone else does and get Bessa L with a 15mm... but that means another camera to cart around)

Camera Operation:
Bessa R is a good old-fashioned mechanical camera, no battery drain for those long exposure night shots I like. Contax G1 reminds me of my EOS-5! So I assume that the camera sucks the batteries dry for those long exposure night shots I like.
Bessa R is mechanical; the Contax G1 is electronic
(in the words of my Grandfather "The more buttons it has, the more things to go wrong with it!")
The Bessa R uses framelines and the Contax G1 uses some fancy electronic rangefinder (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=253) - I have never used a camera with framelines before and I'm slightly uncertain. But my sister's Pentax P+S has same style of rangefinder that the G1 employs and I'm quite happy with it.

If it's any help my three favourite styles of Photography are landscapes, architectural and photo-journal type stuff. The two main reasons why I want to get a rangefinder are-
A) Small and light compared to it's 35mm SLR cousin, which is good for long hikes into the wilderness on location scouting missions, before I hire the necessary sherpas or helicopter in a 4x5.
B) Discrete and they don't look expensive. Even the cheapest 35mm SLR I use to own got the scary-suspicious look from strangers in the street, however with my Hasselblad or the Konica Hexar I borrowed once... no one battered an eyelid!

...So with all that said... advice please?

A big thank you in advance,

Stu :)
 
Well, being a proud Bessa R owner I can say that I am perfectly happy with it. You are right, it is as simple as saying, it is a camera. No need for an instruction book, your grandfather would be happy to see how simple it is. The only thing I would add is that changing lenses is not a simple fast process. You have to screw the lenses on and off, and the threads are very precise (a mark of quality) so you have to be exact when screwing the lens on. That being said, you may or may not want to reconsider an M mount camera if your style has you changing lenses often and needing to do it quickly.

You may have seen this, Lars did an excellent review of the Bessa R and posted it here.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=313

Good luck.
 
Bessa would be more convenient... although, in your case, an old Leica might be a good choice too. See, the Contax is a good travel camera, and, as you noticed, their second hand prices are getting to be quite reasonable. However, the bells and whistles aren't that obtrusive. I tell you from my own experience.

But then you want to be unnoticed... go for a Bessa; and make it a point of discipline not to change lenses in mid-shooting assignment, no matter what camera you have. The reason? When you are "forced" to see the world in a certain way, you become resourceful and creative.

In sum, cost and ease of use should tip the balance towards the Bessa. The Contax is a great instrument, and I intent to keep mine, and even enlarge my system, because, when it comes to traveling, it's a breeze! And the titanium body is strong too, which ads peace of mind...

Good luck and welcome to the "corruptive" world of rangefinders! :p
 

So in October last year I got brave and started to sell off my Canon EOS gear. By January I had sold it all,
Click to expand...

Good God! I don't think I could bring myself to ever sell my SLRs. They're too versatile.


If it's any help my three favourite styles of Photography are landscapes, architectural and photo-journal type stuff. The two main reasons why I want to get a rangefinder are-
A) Small and light compared to it's 35mm SLR cousin, which is good for long hikes into the wilderness on location scouting missions, before I hire the necessary sherpas or helicopter in a 4x5.
B) Discrete and they don't look expensive. Even the cheapest 35mm SLR I use to own got the scary-suspicious look from strangers in the street, however with my Hasselblad or the Konica Hexar I borrowed once... no one battered an eyelid!
Click to expand...
Unless you are really in love with the Zeiss lenses, I'd recommend the Bessa because it's so much cheaper. I don't know what prices are like where you are, but KEH.COM (a reputable, online, used camera retailer) lists Contax G bodies around USD$550. A new Bessa R from cameraquest.com sells for USD$249, and a new Bessa R2 sells for USD$469.

That USD$300 price difference is almost enough to cover the cost of the CV 15mm you covet.

The thread mount is annoying if you need to change lenses quickly (like I did, last weekend, while trying to take pictures in an alternative rock club) and if that is a big concern, you can get the Bessa R2 which gives you access to an even wider range of lenses, although you will need adapters to use LTM lenses.


...lars
 
Hi, and welcome! I don't have a Bessa-R, but do have the L and T as well as the 15mm you mention. I'll try to hit a couple of points you raised... On the Zeiss lenses, I understand the T* indicates multicoating. I think all modern camera lenses are multicoated, so there's no distinction there to draw, except in comparison with lenses older than a couple of decades. Zeiss and Pentax were leaders in multicoating.

Even if you chose a Contax G1, it might be worth your while to go with a Voigtlander Bessa-L with the 15mm f/4.5 instead of the slow and expensive 16mm Hologon.

If you have any interest in using M-bayonet lenses from the Hexar, Leica, etc, then they won't fit on the Bessa-L or -R, and you'd be better off with a Bessa-T or R2, or Hexar or Leica! The Minolta CLE is a near-ideal choice too, though now it's getting on in age and harder to find repair parts. Now talk about discreet!

The Contax has a zooming viewfinder rather than the more common fixed-magnifcation viewfinder of the Voigtlander R/R2s, Leicas, and Hexars. These have selectable framelines to delineate what will appear on the film. An advantage is being able to see OUTSIDE the framelines, so see what's entering and exiting the framed area. The Contax is more like an SLR in this respect. The Contax doesn't have a rangefinder in the usual sense, though of course its AF feature determines subject distance in a different way.

BTW, the Contax G is no relation at all to the pre- and post-war Contax II and III rangefinder cameras, and it's with these latter that the Voigtlander R2C can share lenses.

Your grandfathere has a point that I'm agreeing with, more and more. A simple and intuitive human interface is of high importance. That drove my choice of Macintosh computer long before MS Windows, and means I have a hard time with VCRs and the latest crop of electronic cameras! I prefer non-zoom, non-AF, non-motorized gear that's easy to operate once you know the basic photographic principles involved. I don't want to wade through several levels of menus on a tiny LCD just to set a manual shutter speed!

But, being open minded (and perhaps my intelligence has already leaked out), last Fall I got a highly automated Fuji GA645. It's rather close to the Contax G in features except for a non-interchangeable lens. I ran a couple rolls of film through it a few months ago, and yesterday I got it out to use again. I put a roll of film in, stretched the leader over to the takeup spool, and stopped, confused. Okay, do I manually advance the film to the start arrows, or do I just close the back and let the motor winder do the rest? I couldn't remember! I had to dig out the manual and study the details of how to load the film. Ridiculous in the extreme.

And, once loaded correctly, I noticed the Fuji thought it was smarter than I and had used the barcode on the film to set the ISO speed, after I'd already set it. I like to set it 2/3 stop slower than the rated speed, so almost missed "correcting" the too-smart camera on that. Just one more example of knowing what I was doing but undermined by over-automation. I may or may not come to appreciate the auto-focus, built-in pop-up flash and all the other "conveniences." :) There is a lot to be said for a mostly-manual non-electronic camera.
 
Here's the bottom line.

The Contax G1 offers a zoom viewfinder without the view around it- except for the 90mm lens which is pretty much 1:1 so you can keep both eyes open.
This is either a good thing or not.
Leica and Voigtlander seem to think so. Contax (and I mean the old Contax) and older Nikon cameras don't for wide angle lenses.

The lenses are all "the best of the best." I believe that they top Leica in contrast and resolution.

There've been a couple side-by-side comparisons on Photo.net, and the Contax has won both that I remember seeing, one was the 21mm.

Both are great cameras. Both are fun, both will provide you with nice results. One is a manual focus rangefinder with limited automation. The other is a camera with point-and-shoot (that's not bad!) automation, by your choice. Both mount great lenses.

Whichever you get, you'll have fun.
 
Thanks for all your answers!
Sounds like a vote for the Bessa R and a call to Stephan Gandy.
Today I got to fondle and play with a G1; weight didn't bother me (still lighter than an EOS-5 with a 20-35mm!) , felt strong, durable and compact. However... the viewfinder seemed a little small, nothing happened in the viewfinder when I focused, all I heard was the Canon like 'beep'. That focus wheel contraption seems infernal and the read out in the viewfinder wasn't quick as Voigtlander's > O < LED display.

Automation doesn't bother me. I've been heavily involved in computers for 21 years of my life and I'm only 27! I'm kind of guy who fixes his own VCR and then writes to Philips telling them how to improve their design (with an interesting out come too, but that's another story).
Also my Canonet QL17was the first camera I owned without a motor drive, so I'm famous for not winding on my film after each shot. Also once I loaded some film into the QL17 and I completely forgot that it didn't have DX code reader inside... then trying to explain to the lab tech why I rated the 400 film at 40...

I still have a SLR, just is it's not 35mm, but 6x6.

With regards to mounting and dismounting lenses. If it does really bother me, I'll ditch the R and go for a R2. However today I had to change a lens on the Hasselblad inside a church packed full of tourists, if any photog saw what I pulled off I'll be up for a medal ;)

Stu :)
 
They really are two different cameras. I first looked at the G1 and settled on the R2: (IMHO) much more of a purist camera.
Good luck-
Parker
 
Re: Which 35mm Rangefinder? Contax G1 or Bessa R

Stu :) said:
[SNIP]A Contax G1 2nd hand costs the same as a new Voigtlander Bessa R!
The Contax G lenses seem reasonably priced 2nd hand and on par with new prices for Cosina Voigtlander lenses

Lens Choice:
Bessa R uses 39mm LTM mount, so lens choice is much greater
Being a proud 6x6 Hasselblad owner, I'm already know how good Carl Zeiss optics are and Contax use Zeiss glass... however I don't see a little red T* on the Voigtlander lenses
I use to own a Tamron 14mm f2.8 for my EOS cameras, which I miss terribly, so...
15mm f4.5 for the Bessa R - $349 ~ 16mm f8 for the Contax - $2500 (unless the 15mm f4.5 Contax mount lens that Stephan Gandy sells will fit the Contax G camera bodies or do what everyone else does and get Bessa L with a 15mm... but that means another camera to cart around)

[snip] [/B]
Click to expand...

Bessa R vs Contax G1

In all truth I chose the G1 for a variety of reasons. The first being the lenses. Normally, I review photodo.com and photozone.de before buying new lenses. Unless I missed one, the standard 45mm f2 lens for the G series rated a 4.7, and is the highest rated lens on photodo. That was impressive.

Now, dozens of roles later, I can tell you the 90mm f2.8 is exquisite and the 35mm is worth its wight in gold. The lens is tack sharp, and you can buy them at a reasonable cost.

I believe the automation has its place, and in truth, I like the manual wheel on this camera. It is the fastes camera I have ever seen going to infinity, and with all the wide angle lenses being used on it, the thing is normally ending up there anyway.

The viewfinder is a little bright with the lighting at night though.

Oh, and if you needed some extra speed, you are only talking 100-200$ more for a G2. Though the few milimeters biger camera was something I have yet to buy.

I do not like the build on the Bessa cameras. I would be kind of leery about breakage, just buy feel, but it may be a misnomer. My titanium brick of a G1, I have no fears about really.

The last point is, if you buy a G1 you can always sell it, there will always be a market.

Oh, as a note, if you buy a G1, I would suggest only getting one with the Green sticker in the film well, as this allows the use of the 35mm and another lens, can't rmember which off the top of my head.

Good luck!
 
Only the 35mm Planar, Robert, as it came up long after the initial line of lenses, which included the Biogons 16, 21 and 28, the Planar 45 and the Sonnar 90. The 35-70 zoom is for exclusive use in the G2.

I hope I got them all correctly... :cool:
 
SolaresLarrave said:
Only the 35mm Planar, Robert, as it came up long after the initial line of lenses, which included the Biogons 16, 21 and 28, the Planar 45 and the Sonnar 90. The 35-70 zoom is for exclusive use in the G2.

I hope I got them all correctly... :cool:
Click to expand...

Ah... the 35mm is my current favorite (though the 28mm is on my G1 right now). Oh, and the 16mm is a Hologon :D

The zoom is something that may drive me to getting a G2, but it just seems to BIG. Dunno.

Next lens will be 21mm or 16mm for me.
 
Ok just nail this forum down...
The Bessa R is on route, so is a 35mm 2.5, Jupiter-3, I'm currently clutching a 9cm Elmar and I have new temporary savings account set up with the name 'Voigtlander15mm' with a minimum withdraw set to the current price of a CV 15mm 4.5.

Stu :)
 
Robert, I wouldn't bother with a zoom. The wonder and beauty of RF lies in their fast lenses.

Thanks for the name correction! I have problems remembering all... BTW, I don't know if you've heard this but, from the wide-angle lenses (at least the more conventional focal lengths), the 28 has the best reputation, and the 35 tends to be a bit soft on the edges. I have the latter, and will probably sell it to get the Biogon 28mm instead.

However... now that I think about it, the 35mm is the ideal focal lenght for street shots.

Let us know when you get the next lens! The Zeiss ultra-wides have some very good reputation! :)
 
Francisco,

There is one thing I would caution about the 28mm. While it is a great lens... it slightly clips the bottom right corner of the G1's viewfinder. I do not know if it does it to the G2.

The 35mm is also perfect for group portraits. I use it for most of my candids as well.

Trying to save for that ultra-wide:) March should do it I hope!

I am real questionable about the worth of the zoom, outside of candids. And as a day time lens (yesterday I eneded up shooting f22 / 1/1400 due to leaving in the wrong film, 1600 for wide field astophotography and evening street).
 
Stu, you will soon have a very nice rig! The 35/2.5 is reputed to be a gem, and the 15/4.5 is hard to equal. I expect you'll see a different look between these and the Jupiter-3. I believe it was patterned after the old f/1.5 Sonnar, so would have quite a different signature look. It should be interesting! I have the Jupiter-8, and it's remarkably good...
 
Re: Which 35mm Rangefinder? Contax G1 or Bessa R

Stu :) said:
If it's any help my three favourite styles of Photography are landscapes, architectural and photo-journal type stuff.
Click to expand...

You sound like me! I am considering a rangefinder for the same reasons.

I am trying to use a Minolta Dimage Xt for photojournal / landscape / architectural but I suspect a rangefinder might serve me better.
 
Four years after this thread was discussed, I am seeing Cosina/Voigts going up in price, and the Contax G1 coming down.

If in fact the Contax G-series 45mm lens is the best made ever, then the 2-300 dollars the G1 is going for, usually with this lens, seems like a bargain.

I see Soviet era lens prices getting crazy, and Canon Serenar prices are also climbing. Frankly I am not sure what Leica owners mean by cheap when they talk about old 50mm lenses.

Added to the problem is that Soviet-era lenses don't focus correctly, and never will, and they are not that sharp (but have great effects), so there is no real savings even if you can find cheap ones.

In the used market, Cosina/Voits go for about their new prices, which seem close to the prices of used Contax G1s.

From the discussion above, all you get from the G2 is zoom, which is hardly a rangefinder staple.

The two benefits of the Cosina/Voits in my opinion are the mechanical shutter, which I believe produces more synchronized shutter releases, and the split-image manual focusing. I am not sure how much of a liability the loss of either is in the G-series, and I would like to know.

Two rangefinders I have but have not used are a Vito B, with a Zeiss rangefinder on top, and a Yashica Lynx 14, which has a 1.4 lens. I have read that the Vito B shoots like a Leica within its abilities.

My camera of choice now is the Olympus OM-1, despite its being an SLR. I have been getting Zuiko lenses cheaply, and they are small like RF lenses. I like the shutter speed ring being behind the aperture ring on the lens so I can change speed or depth-of-field without leaving the viewfinder. My two improvements for the OM-1 (besides the obvious -- durability) would be shutter and aperture information in the view finder, and a little plastic window in the lid.

When the Sun goes down, I take out my FM with its Nikkor 1.2...
 
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I've been using the ContaxG1 and the G2, plus the 21, 28,35,45 & 90mm lens for about six years now.

I don't have a Bessa R, but I do have a Zeiss Ikon with the 35 & 50mm lenses plus the CV 25mm.

When push comes to shove and I want to insure I have the best photos without having the camera get in the way, I pick up the Contax G every time.

For me:
1) auto film loading is nice and it's fast
2) auto wind is nice.
3) auto rewind is nice and it's fast
4) auto exposure is nice but I do always make sure it is logical
5) auto focus is really fast & helpful and works 99% of the time when I'm in a hurry
Others have different priorities/likes/dislikes

I just find that in those occasions where I would use the more manual Zeiss Ikon, that I simply pick up my Mamiya 7
 
Bob Michaels said:
.... When push comes to shove and I want to insure I have the best photos without having the camera get in the way, I pick up the Contax G every time....
Click to expand...
Amen to that. I use the G-series bodies and lenses in all sorts of conditions and have to say the G2 is as close to a perfect film camera as I've ever seen. I have a fridge-full of slide film just for the G2 and the wonderful lenses that it takes.
 
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