Which Leica M?

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ATX

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Hello all, this is my first post. I found out about RFF from a user on Flickr. This is an amazing site - extremely informative.

I just finished up an Intro to Photojournalism class this semester and I'm now obsessed with photography. I already own a Nikon D40, which I purchased at the begining of the semester to be able to complete my assignments. Great camera, but I'm now interested in film cameras - particularly those in the Leica M series.

I need some advice as to which Leica to purchase (M1, M2, M3, etc.) and what lens I should get to go with it.

Also, does anyone know of any good places to purchase these cameras (on and offline)?

Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

- Ryan
 
If your primary lens focal lengths will be 50mm or wider the M2 will work. M2 finder framelines 35, 50, and 90mm

M3 50, 90, and 135mm.

If you need all of them the M4 is a fine choice.

The M1 only has a viewfinder..no rangefinder..
 
ATX - welcome to the party!

If you want a rangefinder with the modern conveniences (film plane metering, if not auto-exposure, for example) you want a M5, M6, M7 or MP. Plenty of folks in RFF will be happy to tell you which is their favorite.

I have an M6, because I was able to score one off eBay for cheap. I like it, but think an M5 would be pretty cool - if I can beat sepiareverb to the next good deal I see on one.

I also like the Konica Hexar RF, but they are impossible to service if broken. I think you get great bang for your buck with the Bessa R series, and with the Zeiss Ikon. You can get a new Ikon for less than a used Leica, or two Bessa bodies for the price of a new Ikon.

RE: Lenses - there are more flavors than at Baskin-Robbins. If you go for a Bessa R3A get a Voigtlander 40mm/F1.4 Nokton - IMHO the best all around lens for the money, and matches the R3A's frameline. The only 35 mm RF lens I have is a Leica 35mm Summilux ASPH - which I can recommend enthusiastically with the only reservation being the cost. You will get hundreds of recommendations for a great 50mm - personally I think the Hexanon 50mm/f2 may have the best value for size of anything out there.

John Noble has been posting about the "downward spiral" since he got his first RF. You are on the brink of the void - enjoy the view, dive in and take some great pictures.

- John
 
foto_fool said:
...I have an M6, because I was able to score one off eBay for cheap. I like it, but think an M5 would be pretty cool - if I can beat sepiareverb to the next good deal I see on one...
- John
Click to expand...
My eyes are everywhere John

I'm not going to add a body for a while (probably), so you guys are safe for the time being. I am hard pressed to pass up a good deal tho...

I really want to use a camera with a meter- sunny 16 works, and I admit to using it from time to time, but lets face it, meters make shooting easier and more predictable. I love the M5, a VERY accurate spot meter in essence in an ergonomically superior (I said it again) body. Drawbacks are age- this is a 35 year old camera, and even well pampered parts are going to be getting scarce. I also love the M7- here the meter is quite good, and you get the option of Apeture priority when you want it (I almost always want it when shooting the M7).

I haven't used a M6TTL, and think I'd like that model, but the M6 classic isn't the best fit for me. It really is only the shutter speed dial that bugs me as it is too small for my fingers to work comfortably- IN COMPARISON to the M7 or M5. If I didn't know the difference I think I wouldn't really notice, but as I had both the 7 & 5 before the 6 I really do notice it.

As to glass I shoot mostly with the 50. I like both the Summicron and the Hexar RF 50/2 I recently added. I'm just getting settled in with wides and the M system so I can't really talk towards that on firm knowledgable footing. Do be aware that if you work with a lot of very wide angles now that there may be a learning curve with the M- I've found it quite different (and better) thus far than with SLR's, where I was all over the wides. 35 is also great with the M's- many of the classic shooters I grew up on were 35 guys. (Friedlander, Callahan) The ASPH 35 Summicron I have is a gem of a lens- I got a good deal because there are some big cosmetic flaws. In the end it is the quality of the lenses and the viewfinder letting you see more than your picture that makes the M system perfect for me.

As stated above beware as you tread in these waters, as the undertow can be quite powerful. The upside is amazing images and a lighter bag.

Now where is that scuba tank?
 
Finally Got to See a REAL LIVE Leica

Finally Got to See a REAL LIVE Leica

Hi -

I'm in the same boat. I visited the best camera store in my town and for the first time was able to compare Leice with other brands including Nikon, Canon, Hasselblad, Rollei and others.

Until now I never realized how different the M series cameras are. I am tempted to make the jump, but I'm very concerned about film cameras in general and need some reassurance.

This camera store has an active used section and there are rows and rows of used Nikon 35mm film cameras for sale. Everything from the original F model to the F5, and all manner of more modern Nikons, Canons, and less well known brands. These cameras are often 2-5 years old, look near mint and are 30-40% of new prices. He also has some used Leicas - much older models - that are also far below "new" prices, and a smaller selection of Hasselblad cameras (my favorite - prior to seeing the Leica).

My questions - (1) With digital taking over, and with even Leica and Hasselblad offering digital cameras, will the resale of Leica and Hasselblad cameras fall over the next few years; (2) will the demand for digital cameras stiffle the R&D going into film cameras, leading to a lack of innovation in the future?

My questions are based upon investment concerns. A new Leica with a lens and modest accessories is $6K, a VERY significant sum for someone who is very new to this. Even a used Leica, of recent vintage, is $3K or more. I'm afraid that if I only use it occassionally - which is likely - that I've made a purchase with little resale potential.

The dealer offered me several late model Hasselblad cameras, with stock 80mm lens, for very reasonable prices - all under $1,500. I realize that the cameras are very different formats, but as a newbie they to me are similar - manual controls from high quality manufacturers.

Can anyone reassure me about the Leica's future, and also continue the thread of "best model" to own as a first Leica, along with best lens choice - the local dealer loves the F2.0 50mm "standard" lens, and the 35mm lens.

Thanks in advance
 
Hi Lenscap and welcome! -

I hope this doesn't sound like a value judgement - it is not intended that way - but if you are basing your questions about camera purchase decisions on potential resale values, you are talking to the wrong crowd. You clearly have not yet fallen victim to the GAS attack that has afflicted so many of the RFF community, so so many times.

I don't think anyone has any assurance that Leica will be around in 20 years, but I would personally give you good odds. Same for the persistence of the availabilty of film and the facility to develop it, though I fear that the silver print may become an artistic statement or an indulgence for the wealthy.

All that said, the utility and workflow of a Leica and a Hasselblad are entirely different. This seems to me the first decision you need to make.

- John
 
It will be a continual search.

It will be a continual search.

Once you get the Leica bug, you will never be done with your search for your perfect M. I did my Military PJ work with a pair of M2's. And later with Nikon SLR's. Then Nikon DSLR's. I am now back to an M3 and M6. Go figure, a complete 360 turnaround.
Welcome to the world of Leica and RFF.
 
Thanks for the Information - This is a wonderful forum!

Thanks for the Information - This is a wonderful forum!

Thanks to all for the replies. It is a pleasure to get prompt replies from knowlegable people who are trying to help answer a newbie's questions. Much appreciated.

I agree that the Hasselblad and Leica are very different workflows. Truth is for my needs the Leica is the better choice (documentary shooting, travel, general all around use) but the price of Leica equipment makes it difficult to acquire all of the needed equipment. When I spoke with the camera store owner and put together the "kit" I wanted (Leica M MP, 1.4/35, 1.4 2.0, 2.8/90) and added some accessories, I needed oxygen after he told me the price!!

The used market is difficult, especailly on EBAY where you don't know what you're buying or the honesty level of the seller. The local camera store does come across used Leica equipment, but his markup is substantial.

Because of all of these issues and concerns, I'm trying to become better educted before committing to any specific camera/lens. Your forum is a wonderful way to do that. Thanks again.

Incidentally, there is a current Ebay auction for a M6 wtih Summicron M 50mm f2.0, F2.0/35, and F2.8/90 lenses that has just started and is only bid $1,500. I wrote to the seller and checked the serial numbers. The body appears to have a build date of 02/88, and his ad notes that he bought the 35 and 50 mm lenses at the time of the camera purchase. No info about the age of the 90. Also had rangefinder serviced in 10/06 and claims camera is "mint- to excellent+". The price I'm sure will rise significantly, but does anyone have a comment about this setup? I would have preferred the F1.4/35 so I could shoot on my trip to Italy in churches without flash. Same goes for the 50 lens, but when buying used equipment you can't always get what you want. (Sounds like a song from my youth).

Again, thanks to all, be well, and thanks for the welcome to the forum.
 
Lencap & ATX: Welcome!

Be patient. Have money in hand. Subscribe to the 35mm camera and lens sections of the RFF Classifieds. You will get an email announcing each new listing. Be ready to pounce. The good stuff at fair prices sells in minutes to hours. Since joining a little over a year ago, virtually everything Leica, Canon & Nikon ever made and worth having has appeared in the classifieds here. Our sponsors also have good used inventories. www.keh.com is another source.

Markets ebb & flow. However, high quality rangefinder bodies and lenses have retained more of their value than just about any other camera gear I can think of. Consider the purchase of quality RF equipment as a rental. Assuming you buy right, the cost of selling won't hurt too much. Heck, you might make a buck or three.

Do not rule out C/V, Canon or Nikkor lenses.

Enjoy! Shoot Kodachrome!
 
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@lencap

maybe some aspects to think about:

If you wanna by a brad new one, you really need oxygen!!!!!
Also if you by the actual modells 2. hand, you will find out, that especially the mp is the most high price M camera at the moment (beneeth any of the collector stuff...).

But there are other possibilities - the M6 was never as cheap as at the moment - the 2.hand market is full of different M6 modells - if you do not need the ttl M6, you have a great chance to get one under €1000,-.
Another idea is the M4P, not so much loved by the leica freaks (don´t know why??), this cam lacks of a integrated meter, there is a coice to get a leicameter MR, but keep in mind, check it bevore you by it, many of them do not work properly - and you need weincell batteries.
Or you by a seperate meter, leike the classic seikonic.

Don´t by all lenses at one time - you will find out, that there is no other camera system, where you have to get used to the special character of the cam and the lens.

You have to imagine more things as your rangefinder shows you - and this is with one lens at the beginning difficult enough.
Buy a 50mm cron or lux and learn to imagine the depth of field, the perspective, the exact framing, the speed of focusing and apperture/ speed setting.

If you developed as an expert with the 50mm, buy the next lens, I would go for a wide angle like a 28mm or 35mm - now it starts from the beginning.
Try to bring out the same imagination with the wide angle without loosing the 50mm...

Than you need additional gear:
1. A bag, which is made for one or 2 bodies and 3 or 4 lenses - and it has to be well organized, because you don´t have a zoom lens, so a change of lenses should go save and fast - try it in the shop.

2. A lightweight tripod and ballhead.

3. Try to find your personal favourite film.
If it is B/W - DO IT YOURSELF - no standard lab will give you the quality an M system needs to bring out what is packed in - especially the extraordenary lenses!!!!

With every investment you do, you will recognize, that it is nearly everlasting stuff, what I try to say - with an analog M camera, you choose a system which is always in its special way up to date - you never feel that you need a sort of update - maybe another M???

With a medium format in addition, there is nothing in the analog world you need ...
There you can choose a classic TLR from Rollei - fits perfectly to your M - two silent cams!!!!.
A Mamiya 6 or 7 is very interesting if you can´t live without a rangefinder - and of course the hasselblad 500 series - I don´t like it so much, because it is heavy and I hate the magazineloading procedure...

Greetings Ekki
 
I again thank all for your help and wisdom. Over the weekend I spoke to an "expert, professional" who is getting out of film entirely, and urged me to stay away from ANY film camera.

"My clients want digital, they want immediate feedback, they don't use my work for anything larger than 8.5X11 presentations and don't realize, or care, about fine quality. I've got lot of money invested in my gear, but more and more it is becomming obsolete. All of my work has to be digitized, so why start with film."

He had dire predictions for film, and believed that resale values will "fall off a cliff wihin a year." "When people realize Leica hasn't had a truly new successful product in a long time, that their digital efforts are not well regarded, and that you are paying $3K for a lens that is decades old in design, they will move to more modern formats - digital."

I don't necessarily agree, but he was really fired up. Having said that, he still won't sell his Leica gear - "Would you sell you kids because noone but you loved them?" He has a wide array of clients, does very well, and can afford anything he wants. His latest toy is the full frame Canon Digital camers - I think it's a 5D. "I've got to move on, or someone else will take my clients over time. Can't afford that. I'll shoot film for my own enjoyment, but give the clients what they want." Can't argue with that too much.

He also said that it is harder and harder to find high quality labs to develop his negatives as he wants them done. He thought that labs would continue to struggle, and that the good ones would be fine for a while, but "turnaround times may get longer" because of fewer people developing what is left.

All in all he said "If I were you I'd buy a Canon SD-800IS for $350. Play with the camera and put your toe in the digital world. The camera has a 35mm equivalent lens range of 28-105, reasonable glass and some features that you are unavailable on any digital camera in that price range. Even my Nikon D200 has less flexibility over some features compared to this camera. It even comes with a terrific software program that will take care of whatever you need - even stiches together shots to give you a panorama overview. Try that with film. For what you will pay for the Canon digital it's less than the sales tax on used Leica gear."

"If you MUST have a Leica, buy uesed, try for a M6 - they are still falling in price. Don't need the .tll feature. Buy the best glass you can - the advice to get a 50mm lens is absolutely correct."

I was pretty stunned after the conversation. Not really sure what to do.
Comments?
 
Just try. Buy an M2 or M6 with CV 40/1.4 and go from there. Compare the size of an equivalent Canon combo and the
difference is obvious.

Ekki's advice is good. But I would like to add that you don't need Leitz lenses. A lot that you find written about Leitz
lenses is myth. Many historically important Leica photos have been taken with non-Leitz lenses. YMMV.
 
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Film is here to stay. That said, digital is too, and I'd agree that for commercial work few people will care about quality/longevity. They want it now, or just before now- like you're already late. This type of work is best done by digital. You'll spend less time doing it. I can well remember printing up 250 5x7 prints from some stupid real-estate organization dinner at $5.00 a piece and spending days in the darkroom. Thanks to digital those days are gone, and the darkroom time can be for more pleasurable pursuits for all of us.

I don't see prices for glass falling off a cliff- body prices are dropping, but the cliff is more like a curb.

You've got a digital SLR now- that will cover the 'due it now' stuff- if you want to shoot film do it. I think you can learn more from film that will help with the digital stuff than you can bring digital knowledge to film.
 
Hi Folks,

I'd just like to thank everyone for such wonderful input. I know it wasn't my question, but I'm also in the same position of thinking about my first Leica M (I'm trying to fund one by trading on eBay). Given my lifelong reliance on TTL metering and my limited funds, I think I'm going to be aiming for an M6 classic (though with unlimited funds, I think it would be a new MP - hmm, I wonder how long it would take me on eBay for one of those?)
 
As said above, some pro markets demand digital - sports, news, wedding. Amatuer use does not - it's up to you.

Prices of film bodies have in some cases fallen. Many "film" (no such thing, mostly) lenses have not, and some "film" lens prices have gone up due to digital (short focal lengths).

Film is not likely to disappear, but honestly selection has been shrinking and processing is in some cases harder. Getting silver-based B&W processed is now IMO an official PITA. I used to get next day or two day turnaround from Kodak via a local store - now 10 business days. I am going to go over to C41-based B&W probably.

I have been wrestling with this issue. Guess what my most recent purchase was? A Nikon scanner. I decided I've got too many years and too many of my neurons tied up in the Leica M, R and Nikon F equipment I use. The impetus for digital is real but I think that reality is less urgent than many people think.

While I'm here - I'd buy an M6 classic or TTL (depending on how you feel about the shutter speed dial as described nicely by Sepiaverb above) from KEH in EX condition or better, if you can afford it. I'd then buy either a used 35mm or 50mm Summicron from KEH or a new 35 or 50 Cosina from Cameraquest and give it a fair shot. The Leica gear will be returnable and/or resaleable for about what you paid with a little patience. You'd take a hit on the new CV lens(es) but the upfront cost is lower.

The only way you'll really figure this out is to try. We think you'll like it...
 
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