Which rangefinder for portrait flash photography

[vicmortelmans]

Hi,

I'm looking for a rangefinder camera with following features:
- hot shoe (for generic flash unit, like Vivitar 285)
- in-camera bright viewfinder with 90mm framelines (with minimum lens restrictions)
- preferably M-mount (accepting m39 using adaptor)

I'd like to spend something around $600 for camera and lens. No need for it to be EX++.

Leica bodies

Leica M3 and M4 don't have hotshoes. Only from the M4-2 on (is this labeled "M4" or "M4-2"?) a hotshoe is added. All Leica M's have 90mm framelines with parallax correction, but I couldn't find out if they're triggered by special lens cams, or if they can be set manually.

The Leica CL would be suitable as well, but again the information is not clear on which 90mm lenses can be used that activate the 90mm framelines. Same for the Minolta CL(E), and for the latter I couldn't find out if it has parallax correction.

Bessa bodies

From the Bessa's, the Bessa R3M is very tempting, with it's 1:1 viewfinder, but also the R2M or the R would qualify. Framelines are set manually, so there are no lens dependencies.

Lens

As for the lens, I would consider starting off with a Jupiter 9 (m39, 85mm f:2), for budget reasons. Will this lens activate the 90mm framelines on any of the Leica/Minolta camera's? Are there other 90mm lenses around that would come not too expensive?

If someone could fill in the gaps and make some suggestions, much appreciated!

Groeten,
Vic

 

[johannielscom]

The Vivitar is likely to have too high a voltage to keep your circuitry going. It might blow a fuse on the body, check voltages!

Any RF will do as long as you do the math 😀

 

[Photon42]

I'm not sure why you factor out the M3/M4s. You can just link the flash with a small sync cable. For the M3, you'd need another small PC adapter for the camera. If the flash does not have a jack, you can get a cheap adapter for the shoe. Direct flash is anyway not always the best option, so the sync cable comes in handy.

I've never used Bessas myself but from what I see by just looking at the respective pictures, the frameline lever has to be set manually at the body. That's not a bad thing. With Leica bodies, framelines are set automatically by the M-mount lens flange. For screw mount M39 lenses, you need to buy the matching M-mount adapter (28-90), if you want the same convenience. The frameline selectors on the Leica aren't permanent. That means, you can change the frameline by moving the selector - but when you release the lever, the framelines revert back to the state given by the lens mount.

Finders with larger magnification help to focus the image, but it doesn't have to be a specialized camera. There are loupes for sale to screw in place. That's not a bad solution, as the finder magnification is only raised when you need it.

For instance, a 0.72 M6 gives you still the 28mm framelines and you can screw in a 1.25x loupe to raise the finder mag to 0.9x, in case you need it. With the loupe screwed it, the framelines for wider lenses will become hard to see or will disappear.

Rgds
Ivo

 

[ruby.monkey]

Sounds like you need a Nikon F3. 😀

(I'm not entirely joking)

 

[johannielscom]

With a 90mm, parallax correction would possibly not be all that necessary, unless you would insist on a no-crop approach.

None of the Leicas have the possibility to pre-set the frame, the frame selecting will always be done by the lens cam. No problem if you want the 90mm frame with a 90mm lens. I shoot a Komura 80/3.5 with a 90mm adapter and do not bother with parallax correction.

On the CL and CLE you can use the 90/4.0 M-Rokkor or the 90/2.8 Elmar-M, which also fit the other M-mount cameras fine. Other 90mm lenses fit the CL and CLE without any trouble as well, these are fully interchangeable.

Groeten,

 

[vicmortelmans]

Sounds like you need a Nikon F3. 😀

(I'm not entirely joking)

Hi,

I do have a Pentax LX that I use with a Jupiter 9 (M42) occasionally, or with a SMC Takumar 105 f/2.8 (M42). Actually, I was in doubt between spending money on a decent K-mount portrait lens for this body, or going for a rangefinder solution.

I'm going for the rangefinder, because it should allow to gain ~1 stop in available-light conditions, because it has no mirror vibration. I already have rangefinders (Zorki 1 and Canon IIIA), but they have rather dim viewfinders and no flash sync.

I also do have the canon Serenar 80/2. Would that fit the Leica's/Bessa's?

Groeten,
Vic

 

[braver]

Sounds like you need a Nikon F3. 😀

(I'm not entirely joking)

Indeed. I'm curious as to why you would want a rangefinder for such a job, especially if you're going with cheap lenses. A rangefinder can do all this, but it's not what they're particularly good at. Not just the flash bit, but 90mm lenses and perfect framing do not come easily here. You could also spend a lot less on a decent SLR kit and it'll be be at least as good if not better in every way.
I must be missing something...?

 

[johannielscom]

...

I also do have the canon Serenar 80/2. Would that fit the Leica's/Bessa's?...

That would do a fine job, when attached using a 90mm adapter. You would not have to worry about parallax at all, since the 80mm lens would always extend beyond the 90mm frame. Just frame within the 90mm frame and crop out the image desired.

My personal preference would be to get a viewfinder with as big a magnification as possible, i.e. a Leica M3, M6 0.85, or a Bessa R2M or R3M. The A series of Bessas would not help you, Aperture Priority is useless when using flash since you need to set the aperture and shutter manually anyway.

In case you would consider giving up the SLR system, I might be interested in the Takumar 105mm and help fund your RF.

Hope this helps at all!

 

[vicmortelmans]

Indeed. I'm curious as to why you would want a rangefinder for such a job, especially if you're going with cheap lenses. A rangefinder can do all this, but it's not what they're particularly good at. Not just the flash bit, but 90mm lenses and perfect framing do not come easily here. You could also spend a lot less on a decent SLR kit and it'll be be at least as good if not better in every way.
I must be missing something...?

You're probably right... maybe it's just finding an excuse to get myself in bying a better rangefinder than what I've got now...

But on your remark about the cheap glass... I tend to use this combo at indoor occasions with limited light. I prefer available light or bounce flash, if needed. So my film speed would be typically ISO 400 or 3200. Is expensive glass going to help me at all on this type of film? I reckon you'll only see the difference when shooting lower speed film, maximum ISO 100?

Groeten,
Vic

 

[oftheherd]

Rangefinders have their place. They have some advantages SLR and TLR don't have. They tend to be smaller and lighter. But not always. They tend to focus better in dim light, but not always.

If you are looking for an excuse to get a better RF, your desire to have one should be enough. If you are looking for portrait in low light; why? It sounds more like street shooting. Portraiture should be done with more care, slowed down to get the best composition and lighting and expression.

The only RF I have used consistantly for portraiture isn't an option for your stated style of shooting; I used a Super Press 23. Usually on tripod. It wouldn't be the best street style shooter. But really, for portraits, it sounds like you already have what you need.

Even for street. But good luck with your decisions.

 

[payasam]

Vic, I have a Jupiter-9 and, earlier today, posted pictures taken with it in another thread ("FED" in the name, I think). It did not focus correctly in the near range on a Leica M body or a FED-2 body. Finally I deliberately mis-adjusted the R/F of the FED-2 to compensate for the 6cm error at closest focus of 1.15M. I understand that this sort of problem is common with the Jupiter-9.

 

[braver]

You're probably right... maybe it's just finding an excuse to get myself in bying a better rangefinder than what I've got now...

But on your remark about the cheap glass... I tend to use this combo at indoor occasions with limited light. I prefer available light or bounce flash, if needed. So my film speed would be typically ISO 400 or 3200. Is expensive glass going to help me at all on this type of film? I reckon you'll only see the difference when shooting lower speed film, maximum ISO 100?

(...). It did not focus correctly in the near range (...)I understand that this sort of problem is common with the Jupiter-9.

Well there's one answer 😉 I also find sharpness shows upto 400iso but perhaps not so much beyond that. But there are also flare, handling of highlights (glow), distortion, which are also important and less grain-dependant. It's just that the lenses are a good excuse to shoot a Leica and I'd be very picky on glass if I weren't shoot 'street' 100%. I also kinda understood portraiture to mean studio, carefully placed lighting, precise framing...but ofcourse you can do portraiture anyway you like 🙂
In shot, I must agree that any excuse to buy a Leica is a good excuse. Besides, if you have the itch you will at some point own a Leica 😀

 

[vicmortelmans]

I also kinda understood portraiture to mean studio, carefully placed lighting, precise framing...but ofcourse you can do portraiture anyway you like 🙂
In shot, I must agree that any excuse to buy a Leica is a good excuse. Besides, if you have the itch you will at some point own a Leica 😀

Hi,

thanks for the replies. They make me understand my own desires 😉.

And for the use of the term 'portrait' photography, I was wrong indeed, since I only meant "taking pictures of people's faces", which is where the 90mm comes in, to be able to work in a less obstrusive way. I'm certainly not into any form of studio portrait photography.

The stepping stone theory indeed applies to buying rangefinders. When I bought the Zorki 1, I assumed satisfaction, same as when buying the Canon IIIA and look where I'm standing now...

Groeten,
Vic

 

[Mcary]

Hi,

thanks for the replies. They make me understand my own desires 😉.

And for the use of the term 'portrait' photography, I was wrong indeed, since I only meant "taking pictures of people's faces", which is where the 90mm comes in, to be able to work in a less obstrusive way.

I do have a Pentax LX that I use with a Jupiter 9 (M42) occasionally, or with a SMC Takumar 105 f/2.8 (M42). Actually, I was in doubt between spending money on a decent K-mount portrait lens for this body, or going for a rangefinder solution.

Groeten,
Vic

JMO but for from what you've stated in the first paragraph above I think a 135mm lens would be a better choice then a 90mm.
Why don't you try shooting "faces" for a few months with your LX + 105 F2.8 that way you can get a feel as to whither a 90mm or a 135mm would be a better choice for you.

 

[Ranchu]

On camera flash at any distance (like with a 90mm) looks terrible, imo, the light is so flat. A little better with bounce, but you'll need more power than a vivitar for that. This is wedding type work, and the tool of choice for it is an af slr, a bracket, and a lot of flash power. Trying to focus, frame, and hit the moment while keeping control of the flash and bracket with a little rangefinder will be a true annoyance. Flash will never be unobtrusive, really.

 

[vicmortelmans]

I was following your advise and bought myself a nice SMC 85/f:2 for my Pentax LX on the online auction site, but it came in with greasy blades.... If I had gone for the rangefinder, that wouldn't have been that much of a problem, hey 😉

While doing the return procedure, I'm again on the lookout for ... either the other SMC 85/f:2 ... or maybe a true RF passing by ...

Regards,
Vic

 

[MCTuomey]

run a sync cord with the viv 225 and hold it off camera, maybe with a homemade sling off your left wrist to leave the flash to dangle when you need that hand.

 

[charjohncarter]

On camera flash at any distance (like with a 90mm) looks terrible, imo, the light is so flat. A little better with bounce, but you'll need more power than a vivitar for that. This is wedding type work, and the tool of choice for it is an af slr, a bracket, and a lot of flash power. Trying to focus, frame, and hit the moment while keeping control of the flash and bracket with a little rangefinder will be a true annoyance. Flash will never be unobtrusive, really.

This is very true. You will have to get off camera in some way or other to get good portraits (if that is what you are after). A small umbrella (cheap) and a light stand, and some inexpensive remotes like: http://scubajunkie-mymind.blogspot.com/2009/09/yongnuo-rf-602-review-couple-of-years.html will get you started.

But if you are going to be working outdoors, your biggest stumbling block will be the low sync speed on focal plane shutters. You will either have to use a ND filter, find a camera with a leaf shutter, get the most powerful Flash known to man or use ISO 10 or below film. There are some rangefinders with leaf shutters, but I don't know of one that has your other requirements.