Which Variation of the Noctilux to Buy...

[P. Lynn Miller]

Good day,

I am revisiting this thread for several reasons...

Since my last post I have bought an M5 and a Nokton 35/1.2 and this pair have become my 'go-everywhere, do everything' kit. While I like I really like the Nokton, I am finding that I prefer to 50mm to 35mm. I have been using a Nokton 50/1.5 which is a good lens, but I am really looking for a very fast 50mm to use with the Nokton 35/1.2, so the Noctilux is back on the 'to-buy' list.

Also it seems that the Noctilux pricing has peaked and is returning to a price I can afford. It seemed for awhile that there was no ceiling to the price of a Noctilux, so I bought the Nokton and resigned myself to never being able to acquire the Noctilux. But times are a changing, it seems.

So my question is there anyone on the forum that has both the Nokton 35/1.2 and the Noctilux that could take a photo of those two lenses together as a size comparison. I am looking to try to find an E58 or early E60 variation with the removable lens hood. I find the 'big' Nokton with the M5 a very balanced and comfortable working set-up and I interested how the Noctilux compares to the Nokton in size.

Thanks,

 

[MikeL]

So my question is there anyone on the forum that has both the Nokton 35/1.2 and the Noctilux that could take a photo of those two lenses together as a size comparison.

Hi P.Lynn,
Awhile back I took this photo of a borrowed Noctilux and Nokton,

from this thread:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=632999

Not much different in terms of size, but the Noctilux feels considerably more front heavy.
If you are looking for performance, I'd crop the Nokton to a 50 field of view. If you are looking for funk, then the Noctilux is pretty sweet. I sold mine when the prices went crazy, but I'll eventually get another when they drop below $2000 again. I dig the funk.

 

[ampguy]

There are multiple versions of the E60 with attached hood.

Look up and research mpns 11821, 11822, ~ 1994 changeover, and also newer than "last 100" batch in > 4M s/n range, but pre-humidor box, pre 0.95.

Long discussions on other forums, so I won't repeat them here.

 

[P. Lynn Miller]

Not much different in terms of size, but the Noctilux feels considerably more front heavy.
If you are looking for performance, I'd crop the Nokton to a 50 field of view.

Mike.

Thanks for the photo and the link to the lens size thread... the difference is not enough to put me off the Noctilux which looks to be abit 'fatter' than the Nokton. Obviously the Noctilux at 700grs is going to feel a bit heavier than the 490gr Nokton.

As for using the Nokton as a 50mm by cropping... I often find that there is not enough real estate in the 35mm format emulsion, cropping by 25% would rule out any decent enlargement when using high speed film. Might work when shooting Efke 25 though. I prefer shooting a 'real' 50mm lens...

Look up and research mpns 11821, 11822,

You have lost me with the 'mpns' numbers... can you please clarify.

I am hoping to get a Noctilux with a removeable hood, which I understand is the E58 version and couple of the early E60 variations.

Have been thinking about the Hexanon 50mm f1.2, but that only comes in silver... would have to spray paint it black. But the price of a Hex 50/1.2 is right.

Just a note of interest, I was quoted a price of $13,000AUD for the new Noctilux 50mm f0.95 today by a local Leica dealer. Unfortunately they did not have one in stock, so I could not bring one along home.

 

[35mmdelux]

I would think if the Noct drops below $2000, then the 35mm Summilux ASP would drop below $1000. YIKES.

 

[ampguy]

addl. info.

addl. info.

mpns are the leica product #. There are now about 3 or 4 versions in addition the the 5 below, so about 9 known versions total.

The 58mm version, while maybe lighter, and less vf blockage, would not be my first choice. My 11821 (with attached hood, see table below) did not vignette 3 stops wide open, as has been reported on earlier ones, and basically, takes better photos than earlier ones.

This is from a pnet thread, not sure if it is completely accurate - I do know that some 11821's do have attached hoods, so I don't think 1994 correlates to the 11821/11822 mpn change.

Also, units in the 4M mark have been labeled Made in Germany, while of course the glass came from ELCAN and may have been in the process for 10 years, requiring Noctilux glass experts to be pulled out of retirement as Leica ended up having more than "100 last ones" cigar box versions

These are 6 versions up to 1994, but there have always been exceptions...

11820: f1.2 - 58mm filter size - made between 1966-1975

11821: f1 - 58mm filter size - detachable hood 12503 - made between 1976-1978

11821: f1 - 60mm filter size - detachable hood 12539 (mounts on two posts on lens) - made between 1978-1982

11821: f1 - 60mm filter size - detachable hood #12544 (attaches to lens via spring loaded clips) - made between 1982-1994

11821: like a 11822, with attached hood, but boxed up in a 11821 box, s/n in 3.5 to 3.8 range.

11822: f1 - 60mm filter size - built-in hood - 1994 - ?

Mike.

Thanks for the photo and the link to the lens size thread... the difference is not enough to put me off the Noctilux which looks to be abit 'fatter' than the Nokton. Obviously the Noctilux at 700grs is going to feel a bit heavier than the 490gr Nokton.

As for using the Nokton as a 50mm by cropping... I often find that there is not enough real estate in the 35mm format emulsion, cropping by 25% would rule out any decent enlargement when using high speed film. Might work when shooting Efke 25 though. I prefer shooting a 'real' 50mm lens...



You have lost me with the 'mpns' numbers... can you please clarify.

I am hoping to get a Noctilux with a removeable hood, which I understand is the E58 version and couple of the early E60 variations.

Have been thinking about the Hexanon 50mm f1.2, but that only comes in silver... would have to spray paint it black. But the price of a Hex 50/1.2 is right.

Just a note of interest, I was quote a price of $13,000AUD for the new Noctilux 50mm f0.95 today by a local Leica dealer. Unfortunately they did not have one in stock, so I could not take one along home.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

It looks like used 50/1.0 Noctilux prices are below $5,000 at this time. Popflash has a couple in stock.

 

[P. Lynn Miller]

Ampguy,

Thanks for all the information. Do you have a link to the pnet thread you mentioned?

I was thinking of getting the E58 since it is, as you say slightly smaller and intrudes on the viewfinder abit less, but I am leaning toward getting an E60. I think Tom A. claim that he disliked the attached hood of one of his E60's and took a hacksaw to it!

Brian,

I think in real terms that Noctilux is below $4000USD and headed toward $3000USD. While I feel for the users that bought at the top, I am welcoming the trend toward more realistic pricing. Personally, I think $3000USD is a fair and reasonable price for the Noctilux when you look at the price of similar lenses on the market, ie, fast Zeiss glass.

Just need to liquidate a bunch of stuff in the next month to help swell the Noctilux fund...

 

[35mmdelux]

I think in real terms that Noctilux is below $4000USD and headed toward $3000USD. While I feel for the users that bought at the top, I am welcoming the trend toward more realistic pricing. Personally, I think $3000USD is a fair and reasonable price for the Noctilux when you look at the price of similar lenses on the market, ie, fast Zeiss glass.

Just need to liquidate a bunch of stuff in the next month to help swell the Noctilux fund...

"Similar" lenses on the market? Not. Not in anything. However, I do agree about the pricing. $3K is more reasonable.

Early last year I guess people thought they could get a 35mm Summilux ASPH as new for less than $2250. The lens boxed with all the stuff languished for a week unsold. I purchased it and never looked back. Sure, sometimes there is an anomaly and you get a great steal. But who wants to wait 6 months or a year and turn to classifieds over and over and hope someone returns your email?

 

[ampguy]

more info.

more info.

I just searched for "noctilux version" so it will likely be in one of these threads, also search the archives here, note that the l-camera-forum.com site does not rank high in google results so you have to go there and search.

Seems like you have the "bug" so just get one, just get a good price on one so you can re-sell close to what you pay.

Another note on Popflash - They consign a lot of used stuff, so they are on your side (as well as the sellers). If the seller has the wrong price for this market, Popflash will possibly go back to the seller with your offer.

Note that Popflash versions are condensed in what seems to be: V1 is 58mm, V2 is E60 detachable 11821, V3 is E60 attached with man. part # 11822 box.

There is a lot of mystery around the Noctilux since customers who placed their orders during and after the "last 100" were made, started getting their orders filled, with "Made in Germany" and recent serial numbers, which of course must have been from glass stores from Canada. There are rumors that the Noctilux glass team in ELCAN was only 2 people, and 1 had to be coaxed out of retirement for Leitz to fulfill these profitable orders.

Would make a great trilogy addition to the "Da Vinci Code" series someday with Audrey Tatou starring with her M8!


http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica...74-noctilux-mystery-new-lens-marked-made.html

photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00NZkR

photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00BCTK

leica-users.org/v20/msg14555.html

leica-users.org/v20/msg14597.html

Ampguy,

Thanks for all the information. Do you have a link to the pnet thread you mentioned?

I was thinking of getting the E58 since it is, as you say slightly smaller and intrudes on the viewfinder abit less, but I am leaning toward getting an E60. I think Tom A. claim that he disliked the attached hood of one of his E60's and took a hacksaw to it!

Brian,

I think in real terms that Noctilux is below $4000USD and headed toward $3000USD. While I feel for the users that bought at the top, I am welcoming the trend toward more realistic pricing. Personally, I think $3000USD is a fair and reasonable price for the Noctilux when you look at the price of similar lenses on the market, ie, fast Zeiss glass.

Just need to liquidate a bunch of stuff in the next month to help swell the Noctilux fund...

 

[P. Lynn Miller]

"Similar" lenses on the market? Not. Not in anything. However, I do agree about the pricing. $3K is more reasonable.

35mmdelux,

Referring to similar lenses, think Nikkor 200mm f2.0, Canon 200mm f1.8, Nikkor 28mm f1.4, Noct-Nikkor 58mm f1.2, etc. and etc., not just rangefinder glass. Even the really wide lenses like the Nikkor 13mm 5.6 fits in here.

Even some of the new lens, like the Zeiss 85/2 is closing in on $3000...

So $3000 for Noctilux is realistic. Of course, I would love to find a Noct for $1500 and I remember about 10 years ago I had the chance to buy a pair of Noct-Nikkor 58/1.2's for $1300. I am surprised at the current price of the Hex 50/1.2 though.

Interesting to note that on a recent visit to Popflash's web-site, both lenses in the same condition, EXC, the Summilux 50 was $3400 and the Noctilux E60 was $4600. $1200 does not seem to be a big spread for the difference between the lenses. Of course, I think $3500 for the Summilux is overpriced. Just my opinion, of course...

I just searched for "noctilux version" so it will likely be in one of these threads, also search the archives here, note that the l-camera-forum.com site does not rank high in google results so you have to go there and search.

Seems like you have the "bug" so just get one, just get a good price on one so you can re-sell close to what you pay.

There is a lot of mystery around the Noctilux since customers who placed their orders during and after the "last 100" were made, started getting their orders filled, with "Made in Germany" and recent serial numbers, which of course must have been from glass stores from Canada. There are rumors that the Noctilux glass team in ELCAN was only 2 people, and 1 had to be coaxed out of retirement for Leitz to fulfill these profitable orders.

Would make a great trilogy addition to the "Da Vinci Code" series someday with Audrey Tatou starring with her M8!l

Ampguy,

Thanks for all the links, much appreciated.

I have looked at the Hex 50/1.2 but it does not really do what I want. Although, I could buy one right now and then sell it later probably at little or no loss. But you are right, I want a Noct, not because it is a Noct, but because it represents the most versatile 50mm I can put on the front of my M5. Size and weight are of no concern to me, as I am using my Nokton 35/1.2 as my 'only' 35mm for sometime now. It is great having a kit that will let you load a roll of Tri-X and shoot in bright sunlight and the darkest corner of a pub without compromise. I am simply finding that I want a 50mm instead of a 35mm for most of my shooting. Could be a result of my using an 80/2 on the Norita 66 for so much of my medium-format work.

I am ultimately hoping I can find a local Noctilux(Sydney, Australia) so I can actually handle and use the lens before buying. But so far I have not been able to even find a local Noctilux owner, I suppose no one will admit it for fear of me stalking them!

I am not too fussy with the variation of Noct that I end up with, but I am leaning toward a later E60 with the detachable hood.

 

[35mmdelux]

FWIW in 2001 the Noct went for $2500 new. Its doubled in the past 8 years.