Why doesn't Leica just remake the M2?

abenner

undecided
Local time
10:53 AM
Joined
Nov 19, 2006
Messages
338
Location
Omaha
OK, so Leica still makes the M7 and MP but clearly have turned their attention to making digital cameras, and I believe they've stated they don't plan to further advance the M film camera line.

Making cameras the way Leica does is certainly costly. Most have probably seen this video of an M7 being made (http://bit.ly/3iXTc). Interestingly, in the video they say they're making 100 to 150 cameras a month. I assume that includes the M7 and MP. That's a staggeringly low number, reflecting low sales of new film M's, which of course have become very expensive.

They occasionally put out special edition cameras, some fabulous like the MP3, and some that make you shake your head like the Ralph Gibson edition. But they're crazily priced and meant for collectors and aren't going to do much for the film M going forward.

So here's an idea: build me a new M2. No meter. No timer. Simple 0.72 rangefinder. Simple frameline set. No crazy colors, just silver chrome or black paint. Hell, they've been building these cameras for over 50 years, and the thing was perfect the way it was.

There's no research to do. You don't have to spend money on marketing. It's an M2. Anybody who might buy it knows what it is.

Couldn't they do this tomorrow with no effort at all? Wouldn't it be easy and cheap? Find a way to do it, provide a Passport Warranty, and sell it for a number that starts with a 2.

I mean, the film line is dead if they don't do something, right? And they can't really go forward and make something more expensive, because of course their competition at this point is Voigtlander, Zeiss, and most importantly, the used Leica market.

Wouldn't people buy this? How crazy is this?
 
I couldn't see the point ... I think trying to sell something like a new M2 would fail dismally sales wise. They're not exactly difficult to find second hand at a fair price and even if they need a CLA they're still damned cheap for what you're getting. A new M2 as nice as it would be would be competing with all the still perfectly functioning second hand versions that are still out there ... and there's lots of them judging by how many I've seen go through the classifieds in the time I've been a member here!
 
I think cost would be an issue, and demand would certainly be a problem.

Surely a point of discussion, yes. But that's the point here, discussion. My rebuttal:

Cost: certainly they could do it cheaper, right? They have to do it cheaper or the film M is going to go away. The alternative is to continue to make $4000 cameras whose used-mint counterpart sells for just over half that. Of course I have no idea how cheap they could do it, but I'm sure Leica has or could hire smart people who could figure out a way to do it.

Demand: it's already a problem. 100-150 cameras a month is what they're doing. Seems like that's life-support territory for the film M. Sure, there's not a ton of people clamoring for a new meterless camera, but plenty of them change hands on the used market every day. And again, it's not like they have to invest a bunch of money to be able to do this. I mean if I called them up and offered them a million dollars to build me an M2 tomorrow, couldn't they do it pretty easily? Announce it, take some preorders, see how it goes. From the video, they're already building the cameras as demand dictates. They were building a "batch" of 10 M7's. If it fails, what have they lost?
 
If you offered me a million dollars for an M2. I will make one for you.

Anybody else want to give me a million for an M2?

If Leica has the ability to make it will it actually make that much of a difference between someone who is standing in front of a dealer looking at MP's and M7's deciding? Will a brand new M2 bring that much to the table where it can realistically increase the sales of current M cameras?
 
Anyone who wants an M2 can easily find one now, for far less than Leica could build one.

And the people who knew how to carefully construct them are probably all dead.

Of course, if somehow they built new $8,000 M2's, it might take a few years to sell all ten of them.
 
I personally think because of the second hand market, the Leica M2 is easy to buy and it's quite reasonable too, even after a CLA by DAG, Sherry, Youxin etc...

Leica most likely would not sell any brand new Leica M2 Mark II since the selling price would still be too much compared to the second hand price ;-)
 
I couldn't see the point ... I think trying to sell something like a new M2 would fail dismally sales wise.

The point is to make a cheaper camera that's still an M through and through. I don't know what "fail dismally sales wise" means given the fact that sales are already dismal. If they were selling 10,000 cameras a year this would be stupid. But it seems they're selling more like 1-2,000 per year.

How can there be any hope in that number going up? Nothing's getting cheaper these days.

They're not exactly difficult to find second hand at a fair price and even if they need a CLA they're still damned cheap for what you're getting.

A valid point of course. Used M2's seem to go around $600 for a user up towards $950 very clean. Mint samples go over $1000 but of course are rare and who knows if those are being purchased to be used. Want one in black paint, add in at least $300-$500 for the service. Then consider the value of a 5 year Passport warranty and I think a number that starts with a 2 is no more unreasonable than a $4000 MP is.

Would I buy a new M2 if they offered one for $2300 tomorrow? Probably not. But they have to do something, don't they?
 
Is it true that Nikon lost money with the S3 and SP reissues?

That's what I heard. But the major difference was that Nikon didn't have any of the equipment they had used to build all those cameras, nor any of the skilled laborers. All they had where the cameras' specs. They had to rebuild all the tooling and train a new workforce. Leica shouldn't have to do any of that.
 
I would venture it would be about the same to build an M2 than to build an M7 or MP.

The way to get the volume up is to get the cost down, but Leica seems unwilling/unable to make the effort to do so.
 
just buy a mint condition m2. it would probably cost less than a limited edition remake. 🙂

the only recent meterless m they've made is the mp classic, and i can think of some improvements in detailing.
 
Last edited:
If you offered me a million dollars for an M2. I will make one for you. Anybody else want to give me a million for an M2?

My point was that I would think Leica could do this with little effort or expenditure if given the motivation.

If Leica has the ability to make it will it actually make that much of a difference between someone who is standing in front of a dealer looking at MP's and M7's deciding? Will a brand new M2 bring that much to the table where it can realistically increase the sales of current M cameras?

Probably not. Of course anyone who wants an M7 wouldn't consider an M2. But critical to the point is that right now they're selling almost nothing. They could add a cheaper M to the line with little effort.
 
The whole effort would be futile because there is no market for them except in the minds of forum dreamers.

Now if Leica launched a slew of low priced, innovative, Chinese-built digital cameras that accepted M lenses, they might have a fighting chance.





I would venture it would be about the same to build an M2 than to build an M7 or MP.

The way to get the volume up is to get the cost down, but Leica seems unwilling/unable to make the effort to do so.
 
What I'm talking about is saving the film M. Beyond providing an expensive product to a small niche market, I suppose, that's probably unrealistic anyway.
 
Cost: certainly they could do it cheaper, right? They have to do it cheaper or the film M is going to go away. The alternative is to continue to make $4000 cameras whose used-mint counterpart sells for just over half that. Of course I have no idea how cheap they could do it, but I'm sure Leica has or could hire smart people who could figure out a way to do it.

Leica M-series cameras are very labor-intensive. And yes, they have to do it or film M is going to go away. I think it will be the latter.

Furthermore, Leica has no incentive to compete with Cosina.
 
Would I buy a new M2 if they offered one for $2300 tomorrow?

Fat chance of that judging by their current price structure ... if Leica did perceive there was high demand for such a camera their natural instinct would be to gouge as much as they could from us I'm afraid.

That said I love my fifty year old M2 even though I don't seem to use it much! 😛
 
Given how little difference there is between a MP and a M2 it's hard to see how they could make it more than very slightly cheaper. And they'd have the extra cost of making two different versions of basically the same thing.
 
Back
Top Bottom