Why leica M film w/o multiexposure?

[35mmdelux]

Nah, baby. Been shooting Nikon since 1972. I moved out of the pool kit a long time ago and use an F4s and an F5 for film in 35mm SLR. They work fine, although, truth be told, most of the film work these days gets done with an M6 body and the digital with a D3 and D40. I still use the F5 because it looks and works the same way as the D3 (or vise versa) and I can tell how it is set just by looking at it. That doesn't work on the F6. At least not for me. Others - and this is the whole point of my posts here - may have their own way of working.

I just don't like people telling me, or anyone else, what should or shouldn't be done with a camera.

I said the Leica "evolved as a PJ tool." Not that you had to use it in any particular way. cheers -

 

[B.J.Scharp]

now this is very nice solution ! gonna try it out tonite, thanks a lot for the info B.J.Scharp 😀

David, remember that I quoted the literal text, which, if I'm not mistaken, contains one error, and one thing to remember:

Where it says Lift up the rewind know and turn counterclockwise to remove any slack in the film., you need to turn clockwise, not counterclockwise (as if you were rewinding the film, but without engaging the rewind lever). If you're really making a multiple-exposure shot, instead of saving a lenscap-on frame, it is best to do this before the FIRST exposure. Also, make sure you don't use too much force, especially near the end of the roll, as this can cause the previous frame to be returned to the film gate (you're tightening up to film on the takeup spool, which can have some slack left over).

Also, remember that this is from the M3 manual, from back when M3's where double stroke, so when the text reads With the right hand, wind the shutter with two strokes of the advancing lever., you should of course only use one stroke (unless you're using a double-stroke M3, in which case you should of course do what they say 🙂 )

 

[Roger Hicks]

Is and always? You cannot possibly have data/validation for that.
More rules and generalizations. I've already given you an example of one of the most successful photographers of all time doing double exposure in small format and you're telling me that it's "...professionally is and always done differently...".

I'm out. Got a bunch more selects to do before 1300 local. You guys constrain yourselves however you want. Obviously this is a sore spot for me. Perhaps it's because whenever I teach a class I hear, "...but my instructor told me always to...." Or when people look at Winogrand and say, "but he's not aligned with the horizon" or when they run into Kratochvil they scream even louder. How the hell do they deal with Crumb, Munsch, or Kandinsky, or Pollock, Rothko, Picasso, Braque, Rivers, Rauschenberg?

Operating your camera should be second nature. That should take care of the "error mode".
Shoot more. Lots more. If you're shooting less than 20,000 frames a year you're slacking, even as an amateur.
Read E.H. Gombrich's Story of Art. Get some perspective, as it were.

Come on! There you are complaining that others are telling you how to use your camera, then you follow it by telling others how to use their cameras. Ansel Adams must have been an appalling slacker by your standards, and even with 35mm or digital, there are plenty of people who can get more good pics out of 1000 shots a year than another might get from 20,000.

Cheers,

R.

 

[davidtth]

David, remember that I quoted the literal text, which, if I'm not mistaken, contains one error, and one thing to remember:

Where it says Lift up the rewind know and turn counterclockwise to remove any slack in the film., you need to turn clockwise, not counterclockwise (as if you were rewinding the film, but without engaging the rewind lever). If you're really making a multiple-exposure shot, instead of saving a lenscap-on frame, it is best to do this before the FIRST exposure. Also, make sure you don't use too much force, especially near the end of the roll, as this can cause the previous frame to be returned to the film gate (you're tightening up to film on the takeup spool, which can have some slack left over).

Also, remember that this is from the M3 manual, from back when M3's where double stroke, so when the text reads With the right hand, wind the shutter with two strokes of the advancing lever., you should of course only use one stroke (unless you're using a double-stroke M3, in which case you should of course do what they say 🙂 )

noted sir, will do some gentle experiments 1st on this, well i'm using M2 but not M3 DS so i guess i'll just try my luck 🙂

thanks again and cheers!

 

[davidtth]

i just try it out the method, it works for me ! holding on both wind knob and button at same time clock the shutter slowly, the film remains at same position 😀

thanks you !

 

[Roger Hicks]

Roger, I should have said that if you're shooting less than 20,000 in 135, especially in the digital age, you're a slacker. I stand by that. But yes, in large format if you're shooting 10 frames a day you're busting your a$$. And I admit, the numbers may be hyperbolic. I shoot around 40,000 frames a year between commissioned and personal work. That's me. Some do more, some do less. I applaud however people work. As long as they're working the way that brings them bliss and success - however they measure it. That doesn't include deriding others for taking a different approach. If I have done that, it is a failing of my ability to express. Don't want to double expose? Don't!!

Nowhere have I ever complained - I just said knock it off. There's a difference. Knock it off to those who pooh-pooh an approach as not being valid or legitimate. Ernst Haas once said something to the effect that he didn't criticize because he didn't want to stifle a beginning. Nowhere have I said how anyone should operate their camera - quite the opposite. I have said that they should operate their cameras more. And more to the point, I have said that people should operate their cameras however they like. It's just a tool and it's good to know that there are no restrictions on tool usage. Too many people are rule-bound, and worse, by other people's rules.

Cheers,
S
PS By the way, and I've said this before, I push people to your and Francis's website rather frequently. Excellent resource. None of your books or tutorials ever suggest that one shouldn't do something. Or that "no one does this" or etc...

As usual, we are very substantially in agreement, and thanks for the kind comments about the web-site. It was just that I couldn't resist calling you on that one!

As for the dangers of The One True Path, you've probably read this bit on the site as to why one should avoid gurus: http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/ps ignore gurus.html

A brief quote from it:

1 Never trust anyone whose vocabulary does not include the phrase, "I could be wrong."

2 Never trust anyone who tries to tell you that their way is the only way. This is nonsense. If it were, everyone would do things the same way. The fact that they don't is something of a clue.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

i just try it out the method, it works for me ! holding on both wind knob and button at same time clock the shutter slowly, the film remains at same position 😀

thanks you !

Works, but makes a nasty graunching noise with the M2 I tried it on. I'd half-tecalled this trick, and tried it, before spotting that others had already detailed it.

Cheers,

R.

 

[paolo]

Just FUI - http://www.nemeng.com/leica/034bb.shtml
I do not know if the information correct or not. I've never checked it. Mine is M5

 

[mooge]

on the FAQ site where it says the noise is from gears being trashed... it's actually the rewind lever's cam riding on a wavy gear above the film sprocket. the wavy gear is wavy so that it will push the rewind lever back to the 'advance' position when the wind lever is being moved. I think you can see the wavy gear move up and down when you flick the rewind lever about with the back open.

so- nothing is being 'trashed'. but you are going to put some wear on the parts involved; probably not a big deal if you're just taking a few multiexposures. but if you're really into it, I'd advise asking a real technician (i.e. not me!) first, or using a different camera. if the function is not in the manual... maybe there's a reason why.

cheers.

 

[35mmdelux]

Fair enough, Paul. I'm not excoriating you. Forgive me. I only rail against the notion that because a particular tool/medium/approach arose in a particular context, it must be used in the same. If that was the case, we wouldn't even have photography in the first place. Or literature, painting, or non-religious music.

Cheers right back atcha,

S

Fair enough - Cheers - P.

 

[davidtth]

Works, but makes a nasty graunching noise with the M2 I tried it on. I'd half-tecalled this trick, and tried it, before spotting that others had already detailed it.

Cheers,

R.

Just FUI - http://www.nemeng.com/leica/034bb.shtml
I do not know if the information correct or not. I've never checked it. Mine is M5

on the FAQ site where it says the noise is from gears being trashed... it's actually the rewind lever's cam riding on a wavy gear above the film sprocket. the wavy gear is wavy so that it will push the rewind lever back to the 'advance' position when the wind lever is being moved. I think you can see the wavy gear move up and down when you flick the rewind lever about with the back open.

so- nothing is being 'trashed'. but you are going to put some wear on the parts involved; probably not a big deal if you're just taking a few multiexposures. but if you're really into it, I'd advise asking a real technician (i.e. not me!) first, or using a different camera. if the function is not in the manual... maybe there's a reason why.

cheers.

thanks for the tips guys, yup nasty sounds it is, def wont do it often 🙂

 

[Darshan]

oren, i went through your entire flickr gallery and i must say that i am greatly impressed by your work, especially the double exposures.

1 question: how do u do it? 😕

thx,
dan.

It is possible to do multiple exposures on a Leica M.. In fact I have been working on a project of double exposures all done on my M6 some of which can be seen on my Flickr stream http://www.flickr.com/photos/orenrcohen/
Try rewinding at the end of a roll (but not all the way, so that you leave enough outside the casing to rethread) and shoot it twice..

Oren..