dmr said:
Anyway, this conversation was off the clock and not "legal advice" but he did say that (at least in this state) that the Wally World store security kids do indeed have the authority to detain you and call in the city cops if they have a "reasonable belief" that you have committed a crime. He said that they can't actually make an arrest or do any invasive search, but they can hold you and let the city cops take over.
Laws differ from state to state, and I'm not a lawyer. But I worked in law enforcement for a number of years, and got pretty good practical training. As I understand it, "arrest" actually means "detain" or "stop." If you stop someone from going where they will, you have arrested them. People tend to think that you're not arrested until the cuffs go on, or until you've been read your Miranda rights. Not true - if you are no longer free to leave, you're arrested.
Anyone has the ability to 'arrest' anyone - in the old Mayberry definition of "citizen's arrest, citizen's arrest!" But a citizen who does so bears a pretty big responsibility. They could find themselves arrested for unlawful detention or other crimes, depending on local laws. They can certainly find their butts sued off. And if they work for a company and do this 'detention' acting as an agent for the company - meaning they perform such actions at the direction of the company, then the company can be held liable in a tort action as well.
What that works out to in practical terms is this - most stores will act as if they are blocking exits - they will act as if they have the authority to demand to see your receipt or look in your bag. They will post signs saying that they have the authority to search any bag a customer brings on the premises.
All bluff. You'll note that that they don't actually block your way if you try to leave. They won't "order" you to do something, they'll tell you what THEY need you to do - it's a fine line, most people don't understand the semantical difference. "I need to look in your bag" is not an order. "Open your bag so I can search it" is an order. See the difference?
But most people comply - they think they have to. The stores prefer it that way, they're not going to publicize that they don't actually have the right to demand to look in your bag. People obey authority figures - we've been trained to since birth.
In practice, most store security personnel will not detain someone unless they personally see you hide an item or make another action that would lead a reasonable person to believe that they were going to steal that item. You don't actually have to leave the store to be stopped - in fact, if they are going to stop you, they prefer to do it well before you get to the door.
I asked him if I could take any legal action if I was held and found to be innocent and he said "probably not as long as they were reasonable" and such.
Right. If they say "You need to stay here until the police arrive" and you do, you may not be under arrest (or detention, same thing). If you decide to leave and they prevent you from doing so, then there is no question - you have been arrested. If they then proceed to search you without your permission and find nothing, that may be actionable. However, there is a lot of grey area. If they are prepared to testify that they saw you hide something, but could not find it when they searched you because you had dumped it - it might become subject to the 'reasonable man' test, and call it a push.
I don't know if I will do this, but I feel like doing things like that. Around here, Sams Club checks all receipts as you exit. Best Buy seems to spot check. Burlington Coat Factory seems to do it on a whim. And at Target' the perp detector will beep and nobody will pay any attention to it, same at Home Depot.
I don't advise anyone from doing anything they feel might get them in trouble or cause them undue stress or trouble. But I do not stop or consent to be searched or to have my property searched - ever. And that is everywhere. I used to get a very aggressive response from Fry's Electronics security guys - they would get up and circle around me as I walked out into the parking lot - telling me that I was going to get messed up if I didn't stop, etc. I just kept stepping. They never laid a hand on me, but they always made a big show of writing down my license plate number, pretending to talk on cell phones to the police, and so on. Fun guys. I read online that they got the snot sued out of them for that sort of thing.
There are always lines and grey areas. When you walk into a store, if you are watched and photographed and video'd, you really have no legal right to demand that it stop - if you don't like it you don't have to shop there. However, in general, stores can't stop you from leaving, and they can't search you or your property. If they believe you have stolen something and are willing to bet their butts on that, they can put the habeus grabbus on you and call the police. If you have nothing on you, they may be in trouble - depends on how litigious you are. You might sue and the court decides that their behavior was not outrageous - that's life. But that's why most stores won't go the last mile to stop you - they don't feel like playing that potentially expensive game.
Store security guys usually have to go through a couple of days of nothing but video training and they even get tested on it - at least the major chains are that way. They want to protect their property from being stolen, but they don't want thugs or cop wanna-bees who think they can throw a tackle on someone who refuses to display his receipt.
If you don't feel like taking it to the next level, just try noting the words used, and the body language and movements that security guards use in places like Best Buy or CompUSA. Pretend you don't plan to show your receipt - see if they move to block your way. Say "No thanks" when they ask you - but note what words they use to make the request. If I'm right, they'll always couch it in terms like "I need you to show me your receipt" or "Would you please show me your receipt, sir?" If you comply, you are volunteering - so no harm, no foul. The test comes if you decide NOT to comply. What do they do? In my case, they usually just mutter and move on while I stroll out.
Make no mistake - I don't steal. But I don't prove it to security guards, either. My property is mine the moment I pay for it - I will not consent to be searched, ever.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
