Marc-A.
I Shoot Film
Just a reflection: instead of talking about Zidane and his deed, we all are talking about ourself, who we are, what values we hold ...etc It's very interesting (I mean it).
Now, on what I read:
Didier, sorry that I have to be a bit 'teaching', but I think it will be helpful: there's a "meta-ethics" rule, first formulated by the great philosopher Hume, according to which you cannot derive an "ought" from an "is"; ie a norm from a fact.
So when you say "Players just do insult", you're right to add that it is just a fact; but from this fact you cannot deduce: "he shouldn't have reacted like that". Facts are facts, they don't express any values. That's what I tried to make obvious with provocative examples. Maybe "Players just do insult" and maybe it's wrong and other players shouldn't accept this fact.
On the Hockey part: I cannot believe one can give hockey players as a counter-example. I'm a big fan of hockey (not very popular over here), and I've played several years when I was younger. Pacific game? Are you kidding? Above all in the NHL! What a ridicoulous theory according to which "The fighting is allowed to prevent players from using their sticks on each other"
What about allowing football players head butt or break legs for the sake of their protection?!
Darkk: yes Italy won, nobody contests, and personally I don't. If there is a stupid lawyer who wants to make money by the means of a trial against the FIFA, not my fault, not the fault of French people. The people (my butcher, my keeper, my colleagues ...) I met just after the defeat, said all: "it's the game; maybe next time we'll do better". So just blame this stupid lawyer.
And finally about the reason of the criminal deed:
Francesco said: "I hit him because he insulted my mum" is primary school playground stuff!
Right, unfortunately well educated people do not behave in a different manner when they sit on the Senate (I can remember physical fight between italian deputies!) for less obvious reason. Unfortunately, in everyday life, people fight for no serious reason; please tell someone in the street: "you cunt" (not a serious insult I guess) and then tell me the reaction. There's no moral gap between the street and the pitch; there's no moral gap between men and football players. Now, it's forbidden to physically react on the pitch, and it should be forbidden to insult and provoke too.
What did Z is wrong - nobody can say it is right - but sometimes you have to do wrong things: that's what we call "tragedy" (just a strong example of what I call tragedy: killing civilians in a war is not right, sometimes it can't be avoided; see the Israeli movie by David Benchetrit "On tire et on pleure", "we shoot and cry").
Oups I didn't see I was writing so much .... sorry
Now, on what I read:
Didier said:Marc
Your conclusion is just incorrect. I say insults happen on each football field if at the WC or in any amateur league, even in France. Players just do insult. It's a fact. Didier
Didier, sorry that I have to be a bit 'teaching', but I think it will be helpful: there's a "meta-ethics" rule, first formulated by the great philosopher Hume, according to which you cannot derive an "ought" from an "is"; ie a norm from a fact.
So when you say "Players just do insult", you're right to add that it is just a fact; but from this fact you cannot deduce: "he shouldn't have reacted like that". Facts are facts, they don't express any values. That's what I tried to make obvious with provocative examples. Maybe "Players just do insult" and maybe it's wrong and other players shouldn't accept this fact.
On the Hockey part: I cannot believe one can give hockey players as a counter-example. I'm a big fan of hockey (not very popular over here), and I've played several years when I was younger. Pacific game? Are you kidding? Above all in the NHL! What a ridicoulous theory according to which "The fighting is allowed to prevent players from using their sticks on each other"
What about allowing football players head butt or break legs for the sake of their protection?!
Darkk: yes Italy won, nobody contests, and personally I don't. If there is a stupid lawyer who wants to make money by the means of a trial against the FIFA, not my fault, not the fault of French people. The people (my butcher, my keeper, my colleagues ...) I met just after the defeat, said all: "it's the game; maybe next time we'll do better". So just blame this stupid lawyer.
And finally about the reason of the criminal deed:
Francesco said: "I hit him because he insulted my mum" is primary school playground stuff!
Right, unfortunately well educated people do not behave in a different manner when they sit on the Senate (I can remember physical fight between italian deputies!) for less obvious reason. Unfortunately, in everyday life, people fight for no serious reason; please tell someone in the street: "you cunt" (not a serious insult I guess) and then tell me the reaction. There's no moral gap between the street and the pitch; there's no moral gap between men and football players. Now, it's forbidden to physically react on the pitch, and it should be forbidden to insult and provoke too.
What did Z is wrong - nobody can say it is right - but sometimes you have to do wrong things: that's what we call "tragedy" (just a strong example of what I call tragedy: killing civilians in a war is not right, sometimes it can't be avoided; see the Israeli movie by David Benchetrit "On tire et on pleure", "we shoot and cry").
Oups I didn't see I was writing so much .... sorry
Last edited:
Didier
"Deed"
Marc-A. said:Just a reflection: instead of talking about Zidane and his deed, we all are talking about ourself, who we are, what values we hold ...etc It's very interesting (I mean it).
I too think the world cup/Zidane discussion is getting more than obsolete when I have to see how the war in Israel/Lebanon is exploding again.
Marc-A. said:So when you say "Players just do insult", you're right to add that it is just a fact; but from this fact you cannot deduce: "he shouldn't have reacted like that". Facts are facts, they don't express any values. That's what I tried to make obvious with provocative examples. Maybe "Players just do insult" and maybe it's wrong and other players shouldn't accept this fact.
Come on, Marc, are we all tender orphans?
If one player does not accept this (no one said he must), then headbutting the provocator just means he goes 10x further than him. Shooting with cannons on one who throwed a wooden stick. Thus the headbutting player should not complain about the provocation, as this has a somehow hypocritical taste after he used real violence.
In german we call the typical reaction of a child that has done a bullshit "Ich nicht, die andern auch" ("me not, the others, too"). This fits Zidane's Canal+ statements of yesterday very well.
Didier
fgianni
Trainee Amateur
Marc-A. said:There's no moral gap between the street and the pitch
Sorry but I can't agree on this one, famous footballers are ofter held as examples, and heroes, by fans, expecially young kids; this gives tham a higher moral responsibility.
nomade
Hobbyist
All that ebcause ITaly won something 
this is pathetic, because these arguments are everywhere, not just here, which is wierd for a world cup...
this is pathetic, because these arguments are everywhere, not just here, which is wierd for a world cup...
Hey, Italy leads this poll 47 to 39.
nomade
Hobbyist
And it's surprising that it was vice versa, before the game started 
It seems like money in the bank now.
Marc-A.
I Shoot Film
I've said what I had to say. Basta.
Variation: Have you heard the ex- Italian minister Roberto Calderoli' statement and what do you think of it? "la squadra transalpina ha perso schierando negri, islamici e comunisti". "The French team has lost aligning blacks, islamists and communists".
I quote a newspaper:
As the victorious Azzurri returned to a heroes’ welcome in Rome on Monday, Calderoli celebrated it as a "political victory" over a mixed-race French team.
Variation: Have you heard the ex- Italian minister Roberto Calderoli' statement and what do you think of it? "la squadra transalpina ha perso schierando negri, islamici e comunisti". "The French team has lost aligning blacks, islamists and communists".
I quote a newspaper:
As the victorious Azzurri returned to a heroes’ welcome in Rome on Monday, Calderoli celebrated it as a "political victory" over a mixed-race French team.
fgianni
Trainee Amateur
Marc-A. said:Variation: Have you heard the ex- Italian minister Roberto Calderoli' statement and what do you think of it? "la squadra transalpina ha perso schierando negri, islamici e comunisti". "The French team has lost aligning blacks, islamists and communists".
I am not sure what point are you trying to make here, but if you want my opinion:
Calderoli is an idiot as well as a coward since he uses his paliamentary immunity to say things that would get an ordinary citizen (rightly so) prosecuted.
He is one of Berlisconi's cronies, so unfortunately there is no chance that he will resign.
He is the guy that masterminded the electoral law that should have wiped out the left in Italy, and instead ended up giving victory to the left.
After losing the elections he actually challanged the victory to the Italian High Court, and as a result he was then told to go back and read a bit more carefully the law he wrote.
He knew the court judgment was going to be against him, but he had to make the challange anyway to show the guy who pays the all the bills for the parties on the right that it wasn't his fault.
Please keep in mind that I have nothing against right hand parties on principle, it is the Italian political right that is just a bunch of buffoons.
Anyone else wants to bring politics into this thread?
Last edited:
fitzihardwurshd
Spiteful little devil
Didier said:As student I have lived in the 20e arrondissement in Paris for half a year and I know what I talk about.
Didier
I see , and this makes you beeing a ghetto expert too of course. Looking down from right above anyway one has the best overview, this surely helped you to understand the ghetto so fast !
I lived and worked in the less fancy parts of the 19th for 3 years, would be no reason for me to nick and modify this pompous qoute of Norman Mailer for such an arrogant statement.
This attempt of explaning what you meant and how you meant it all, it just confirms your attitude. The words above about your competence let shine it through again.
Fitzi
Didier
"Deed"
Marc-A. said:As the victorious Azzurri returned to a heroes’ welcome in Rome on Monday, Calderoli celebrated it as a "political victory" over a mixed-race French team.
Marc, now you definitely seem to be a "mauvais perdant". Being able to lose with style is a talent not often seen amongst the fans of les bleus, these days.
Calderoli is a scum, as well as France's Le Pen (do you remember: In 1998, Le Pen declined the french world cup title as he said "this is not a french team").
Both Calderoli and Le Pen are racist nazis from the ugliest kind and I am very worried about their (partial) popularity. But one can neither equate Calderoli with Italy nor Le Pen with France except if it is his will to throw mud on the others. Which let me come back to the "mauvais perdant" metaphor.
Didier
:bang:
Left: Z.
Right: M.
;-b
Last edited:
Didier
"Deed"
fitzihardwurshd said:I see , and this makes you beeing a ghetto expert too of course (...) This attempt of explaning what you meant and how you meant it all, it just confirms your attitude. The words above about your competence let shine it through again.
Fitzi
I cannot follow your bitterness.
One does not need to be "ghetto expert" to know that the suburbs in Paris, Lyon, Marseille ARE VERY VIOLENT. I was robbed 4 times in the 20ème, threatened with knives. Not very funny I can tell. The riots last year showed again that violence is highly accepted/applicated in these parts of France, more than somewhere else in western europe.
Zidane comes out of such an environment, where the only law is the rule of force. It explains his sometimes hot-temperered behaviour on the football field, but it does not excuse it. I have said in several former posts, that I always respected his career as football player. But I do not fade away his dark side.
If you consider my opinion as an arrogant attitude - it's up to you. I don't feel concerned at all.
Didier
Marc-A.
I Shoot Film
Mauvais perdant??Didier said:Marc, now you definitely seem to be a "mauvais perdant". Being able to lose with style is a talent not often seen amongst the fans of les bleus, these days.
What do I have to do to make my words understable? I DO NOT CONTEST THE ITALIAN VICTORY. AS I SAID BEFORE, THE WINNER IS THE BETTER!! I FIND THE ITALIAN TEAM A GREAT TEAM WITH IMPRESSIVE PLAYERS LIKE PIRLO AND CAMORANESI ...etc.
IS THAT CLEARER FOR YOU NOW???? DO YOU PREFER TO READ ON MY LIPS?
Paul T.
Veteran
ah, the beautiful game... bringing people from all nations together.
Kim Coxon
Moderator
I am closing this thread.
By popular request, The OT forum is on the front page. The normal rules of RFF apply. In particular, please respect Jorge's ban on the discussion of politica and religion and also bear in mind the "Golden Rules" including the rules on Flaming and Trolling.
Kim
By popular request, The OT forum is on the front page. The normal rules of RFF apply. In particular, please respect Jorge's ban on the discussion of politica and religion and also bear in mind the "Golden Rules" including the rules on Flaming and Trolling.
Kim
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
Share:
-
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.