cz23
Well-known
Thanks. That's about where I'm at with photography - trying to defocus on gear and instead build a better portfolio, one that's more integrated and meaningful. The equipment I have certainly won't limit that goal.
John
Would you buy a Leica X 113?
- Thread starter kknox
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Thanks. That's about where I'm at with photography - trying to defocus on gear and instead build a better portfolio, one that's more integrated and meaningful. The equipment I have certainly won't limit that goal.
John
kknox
kknox
Great response on to buy or not to buy. I did buy the X-113 in Silver. I have shot M film cameras of many years, Hand and sold an M8. The size is so similar to my film M's, the workmanship and design are top notch. Yes, it doesnt have a view finder i know, all cameras have drawbacks. I also have the Fuji X-Pro and XT1, I shoot 35mm comparable lens 90% of the time. The Fuji 23 is a huge lens, and $800.00, the X 113 is a much smaller package with an outstanding lens. It just feels good in my hand & has some heft to it that the X-Pro lacks. Part of photography for me is the journey, not just 500 clicks of the same subject. I travel with my job, this camera is prefect to fit in my briefcase, along with my work computer and related item. I enjoy my Film M's, but not much time for processing film any longer. So the X113 fit a want and need for me, I can't wait to get out and shoot it this weekend. Keep all the comments coming, thanks.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
Good luck with the X, kknox!
I hope you enjoy shooting with it as much as I do.
G
I hope you enjoy shooting with it as much as I do.
G
kknox
kknox
Thanks I'm sure I will, thanks for all your input. The color rendition looks very similar to my M8 I had. Very realistic, the lens and size of the body was a big factor in my decision.
telenous
Well-known
Looking at this with interest, Leica has pulled off a nice little package methinks. Shooting with an external viewfinder is OK as far as I am concerned, reminds me of shooting with the Summicron-C 40 and an M2.
Godfrey, kknox (or anyone else who uses the camera) have you tried the camera in low light? How is the af in less than ideal circumstances? Any idea which EV is the cutoff point for reliable focusing?
.
Godfrey, kknox (or anyone else who uses the camera) have you tried the camera in low light? How is the af in less than ideal circumstances? Any idea which EV is the cutoff point for reliable focusing?
.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
The AF system seems to do well down to pretty dim circumstances (say ISO 3200 @ wide open @ 1/15 sec as a guesstimate); I haven't noticed much in way of issues. But it's so easy to focus manually anyway: just twist the focusing ring and set the focus with magnification assist.
G
kknox
kknox
Just took it out of the box. Need to spend some time with it over the weekend. From what I have seen in the sample photos on the web, & here it should be just fine.
telenous
Well-known
Thanks both, appreciate your replies.
Archiver
Veteran
When the X113 arrives in Australia, it will be about $2700, according to my local pusher, er, camera dealer. The Sony RX1 is now selling for about $2500, so if I had to make a choice, I'd be rather torn between what I know would be the excellent handling and ergonomics of the 113 vs the full frame capabilities of the RX1.
The X113 is practically Leica's answer to the Fuji X100, albeit minus an internal viewfinder of any kind. As I already have a X100, which I'm guessing uses the same Sony 16mp sensor as the 113, I'm wondering whether the differences in handling, the bit of extra speed, and differences in lens rendering would be worth it. Hmm...
The X113 is practically Leica's answer to the Fuji X100, albeit minus an internal viewfinder of any kind. As I already have a X100, which I'm guessing uses the same Sony 16mp sensor as the 113, I'm wondering whether the differences in handling, the bit of extra speed, and differences in lens rendering would be worth it. Hmm...
Godfrey
somewhat colored
It is an interesting three-way decision point.
I disregard the question of price differences since, indeed, you already have the X100 and the capabilities of all three cameras are so close that if price were a real discriminator you would rationally immediately ignore purchasing anything else in this camera type. (Same thing held for me as I already had the Leica X2 ... Why was I interested in the X when the X2 is already very similar to the same thing? Certainly not because of the cost of acquisition or some huge difference in capabilities... 🙂
Between the X and the RX1 is a matter of which camera's ergonomics suits you best and which lens' rendering you like more, IMO. The fact that one is full frame and the other is APS-C is not too big a deal since these are fixed lens cameras. Yes, the DoF curve will be a bit different—with the RX1 @6' focus distance and f/2, you'll net about 1.1' depth of field vs with the X @6' focus distance and f/2, you'll net about 1.9' depth of field—and I expect the RX1's larger sensor will deliver another stop or so of sensitivity, but in the grand scheme these are relatively small differences, to me anyway. The RX1 has more features than the X, and the X body is larger and simpler to use; these differences mean that the X is easier to manage comfortably for what I wanted a camera of this type for.
The Fuji X100 sensor may be the same base family design, but it's quite different in use and especially during raw processing due to the differences in the color filter matrix. I'm on record as simply not being much of a fan of the Fuji sensors from an image processing standpoint, regardless of differences in ergonomics and menu design. The built-in optical viewfinder+EVF of the Fuji is a plus, but like the difference in format between Sony and Leica above it seems not that huge an issue to me: I simply fit the viewfinder of my choice (either EVF or OVF) and forget about it.
So ... Handle them both, test them both by taking a few snaps with them at the store and taking those home to play with in your favorite image processing software, and then buy whichever one pleases you most, if you buy either at all. It's all good.
Ach, there I go nattering on about equipment again. It's a habit. Back to photos...
G
Leica X :: ISO 100 @ f/1.7 @ 1/400 second
rbelyell
Well-known
had an x100, was easily the most 'simple' camera to operate ergonomically as major functions are controlled manually without resort to lcd. it has a fabulous lens and the outstanding results are well documented. everyones different, but for me $2000 is a bit much extra to pay for an extra 1/2 stop in a bundle that is not distinguishable in physical operation. i guess it in part depends on how much 'feel' is worth to you, or if in fact everyone has the same 'feel' reaction. for me, it aint worth 2 grand. for others it seems to be. thats what makes a horserace, no?
as for the rx1, nope it doesnt have a dedicated SS dial, so that particular level of 'simplicity' is lacking. again for me, i take the time to set up a camera the way i want, and as long as they have a physical aperture on the lens and an exposure comp dial, i'm pretty good to go on the 'simplicity' front. the fact that a tool has a large feature set does not require one to pay the least bit of attention to those they dont need, and i dont and virtually never find them 'getting in my way'. the shutter is responsive and dead silent. the rx1 is solid, well built and has a world class zeiss lens. oh yeah, and its FF, which means for DOF purposes youd need a 1.4 23mm lens on apsc to equal it. and i got mine, with a RRS grip, evf and hood for $2000.
as for the rx1, nope it doesnt have a dedicated SS dial, so that particular level of 'simplicity' is lacking. again for me, i take the time to set up a camera the way i want, and as long as they have a physical aperture on the lens and an exposure comp dial, i'm pretty good to go on the 'simplicity' front. the fact that a tool has a large feature set does not require one to pay the least bit of attention to those they dont need, and i dont and virtually never find them 'getting in my way'. the shutter is responsive and dead silent. the rx1 is solid, well built and has a world class zeiss lens. oh yeah, and its FF, which means for DOF purposes youd need a 1.4 23mm lens on apsc to equal it. and i got mine, with a RRS grip, evf and hood for $2000.
pharyngula
Established
I agree very much with your points about the RX1 - I'm just a little distressed that I paid a few hundred more for my comparably equipped used RX1r a couple weeks ago...!
🙄
The RRS grip and EVF really make it work for me. I'd be less enthusiastic about the camera without the improved ergonomics.
🙄
The RRS grip and EVF really make it work for me. I'd be less enthusiastic about the camera without the improved ergonomics.
cz23
Well-known
I'm veering off topic, but I'm always surprised to hear you say that, given what seems to be your interest in a more natural and organic aesthetic. I've got a couple X-Trans cameras. I don't shoot much color, but for sure they have the least digital B&W rendering of any camera I've owned. Really quite a relief from the perfect, computerized look of the Sonys and other digital camera systems I've experienced.
John
rbelyell
Well-known
well the (R) is just alot more expensive than the non (R), new or used. what i do just didnt merit the extra resolution or the extra $.
and yes, i totally agree on the dramatic ergonomic improvement both the RRS grip and evf make. the evf is a necessity, imo, and its a great one. the grip takes rhe whole experience to another level.
Lss
Well-known
I have the EVF for my RX1R, but only use it sometimes. For me, it improves the shooting experience especially in a shooting-intense setting where you move only a little. Studio is a pretty good example. Overall, it however makes the camera clumsier and more inconvenient to handle while on the move or for example working out of a bag. Every detachable EVF camera is pretty much the same. This is not a good trait in a serious compact camera. It's a bit of a paradox, but such is life.
rbelyell
Well-known
like most things, the merits of detachable evf,s are subjective. i love them because theyre articulating. for me waist level shooting ability is a great help both in bright sun and for discreet street shooting. there are many many candid shots i'd have never gotten but for the articulating finder. on the other hand, having used them on the rx1, the gxr m module and the oly ep series, ive never found them ungainly or 'in the way'. just part of the tool that i find i can make great use of.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
After three-four stabs at trying these cameras, I've given up. I find the Fuji XTrans sensor raw data to be very fussy to work with while providing little real advantage over Bayer mosaic sensor data. The Xtrans sensor design is an attempt to provide an alternative to noise and moiré patterns, which with expert attention it achieves, but it is weak on providing adequate color information for RGB channel extraction and sharpening, and the processing techniques to achieve it are tricky.
The Xtrans sensor data requires different base settings compared to any other sensor data I've worked with and has inflection points when making adjustments where the response curve goes non-linear well within the usual range of linear response. Sharpening requires entirely different and mostly non-intuitive techniques to implement well. in color, mushy greens and green-red bleeding are common, and happen far too easily.
I don't see any "perfect, computerized look" in my Sony/Panasonic/Kodak Bayer mosaic sensor work unless I've messed up the image processing (usually by oversharpening or dialing in too much local contrast through poorly-judged used of tone curve tools; or in monochrome work by applying the wrong HSV curve in the mixing). The current Bayer mosaic sensor data from both Sony and Panasonic sensors are amazing in the linearity of their response to gamma correction and chroma interpolation, and take less processing power to do it as well since the cell size is smaller than XTrans sensor data. I can seemingly dial in exactly the rendering I want over a broad range using simple adjustments; they respond linearly and without funny inflection points in the middle of an adjustment range.
I do understand that many people quite like the Fuji cameras and are happy to work with them. I just find image processing for them a bit of a pain, the advantages somewhat limited, and don't really like the specific ergonomics of the cameras and menus all that much. My hands can retrain to use their controls and the menus I would be able to get used to with sufficient motivation, but the image processing issues vs the advantages they bring are the bottom line. I haven't seen anything, even in the latest software, that gets around the weird nonlinearity issues.
Sorry for the digression.
G
Archiver
Veteran
The Fuji X100 was the last Fuji to use a standard 16mp CMOS sensor, before they went X-Trans on their camera line. Many say that they prefer the colours and look of the X100 to the X100s and other X-Trans cameras like the X-Pro 1. No matter how much I fiddle with X-Trans raws in Lightroom, I can't get the them way I like, finding that green foliage looks mushy, particularly.
I suspect (hope?) that the X113 will have the sensor advantages of the X100 while adding those very nice Leica film body ergonomics and a lens with great rendering. Then again, as Godfrey said, if this was just about price I'd stick with the X100 that I already have and not bother with even thinking about a X113 or Sony RX1.
The original question in the thread was 'would you buy a 113?' My answer is that it would definitely be on the 'I want this' list.
I suspect (hope?) that the X113 will have the sensor advantages of the X100 while adding those very nice Leica film body ergonomics and a lens with great rendering. Then again, as Godfrey said, if this was just about price I'd stick with the X100 that I already have and not bother with even thinking about a X113 or Sony RX1.
The original question in the thread was 'would you buy a 113?' My answer is that it would definitely be on the 'I want this' list.
Lss
Well-known
Note that inclusion of an EVF does not preclude incorporating an articulating screen/EVF or the use of a secondary articulating EVF. The serious compacts are often very much system cameras although the lens is fixed.
How about the X-A1?
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