Would You Buy SAME Quality Leica Gear NOT made in Germany!

[CameraQuest]

Thank you Stephen for starting a thread full of and further promoting ethnic stereotypes.

Leitz already produces 4/3rd lenses at a much better consumer price than M lenses.

nonsense.
just what is the claimed ethnic stereotypes?

Leitz produces exactly zero photographic products. There are no currently made Leitz products, only Leica.

Leica has steadily increased prices twice a year for the last 3 years or so, 5 to 10% each time, and selectively much more than that some products, with more heavy increases coming in the not so distant future.

The EU and China markets will hopefully keep Leica camera alive at those elevated prices, but will make new Leica sales much rarer in the US and many other markets, unless Leica has a lower priced not made in Germany camera line.

Stephen

 

[bob338]

racial stereotypes aside, does anyone else feel like this thread is bait?

it seems to me that an advertiser on the forum starting a thread on how much the primary object(leica rangefinders) of this entire board raises their prices or where they're made and at what cost is a little less than objective. if cameraquest was a leica distributor, i think this thread would have a very different tone to it.

i've noticed a couple of other threads lately where one advertiser will ask another advertiser their opinion on a certain subject(the leica m2 for example) only to get their name into the forums a little more often.

it just seems a little disingenuous to me.

 

[ferider]

nonsense. just what is the claimed ethnic stereotypes?

Let's ignore for a second terms like "Hitler's revenge" that came up.

What bothers me most is the association of "Made in Germany" with high prices and what you claim are

extremely high Germany labor costs.

"Made in Germany" means assembly only (just like for cars). Final price has little to do with labor costs. German labor costs are not that high, when compared to Japanese, for instance.

Leica has steadily increased prices twice a year for the last 3 years or so, 5 to 10% each time, and selectively much more than that some products, with more heavy increases coming in the not so distant future.

You must be referring to M mount only. How about the 25/1.4 D Summilux, for instance ?

There is only one reason why Leica (Camera AG) product price is as high at the moment: BECAUSE THEY CAN. Inellastic market, toys and luxury products. Etc.

Manufacturing parts in Asia will not affect this.

Don't worry, if we get a recession, Leica prices will go down quickly.

Roland.

 

[ClaremontPhoto]

VW are making their new premium priced car (Eos) in Portugal, and they are selling very well.

 

[RichardB]

The current 'Business Plan of the Day' for corporations is to remove manufacturing to low cost off-shore production but and this is the BIG BUT, keep the same prices resulting in a huge increase in profit margin. Just about every brand that has recognition has done this and the resulting products have been worse.
Leica will be no different if it moves production off shore. Prices will STAY the same and QUALITY will DECREASE.-Dick

 

[sepiareverb]

...The EU and China markets will hopefully keep Leica camera alive at those elevated prices, but will make new Leica sales much rarer in the US and many other markets, unless Leica has a lower priced not made in Germany camera line.

Stephen

Well the Summarits seem to be taking on this role as regards to the ZM glass- and they're doing it made in Germany. I don't think any new film bodies are ever coming out of Leica, and with the changeover to .58 & .85 VF's being only ala-carte I think they've made a clear decision that they aren't hungering for greater sales of film bodies.

I think Leica is to be applauded for continuing to make so many things in Germany. I for one don't see globalization as a great boon for anything. (hope I'm not trolling with that last sentance 😀 ) Like Dick says above- as manufacturing leaves the 'home' country quality does indeed seem to generally go down- not always but generally. This has been my experience, with both cars and with clothes. Yes, Leica does do some work in Portugal, but seem to have a lot of folks from Germany there, and have a lot of folks from Portugal going to Germany. My Leica 21/24/28 VF has lost a screw, and I've not had it all that long. Made in Japan. One example.

 

[ferider]

The current 'Business Plan of the Day' for corporations is to remove manufacturing to low cost off-shore production but and this is the BIG BUT, keep the same prices resulting in a huge increase in profit margin. Just about every brand that has recognition has done this and the resulting products have been worse.
Leica will be no different if it moves production off shore. Prices will STAY the same and QUALITY will DECREASE.-Dick

EXACTLY.

Only external reasons (competition, recession, etc) might have an impact.

 

[Roger Hicks]

If Leica's are built by highly skilled German employees with many years experience, then they owe their quality to the skills and experience of those employees, not to the fact that they happen to be built by Germans. Any comparably skilled and experienced workforce, in any country, could do the same.

What's known about Leica's production process? Is it smooth and efficient, or are there unnecessary bumps and inefficiencies that drive up costs?

Leica prices are 2-3 times that of their few competitors. Are they 2-3 times better? If Leica dropped the price of the MP and the M7 to, say, $1500, would their sales increase or would everyone fret that they were cheaping out?

First point: absolutely. If you can find somewhere else with a workforce skilled in fine engineeing, the cameras will be as good. But very few countries do have Germany's tradition in this respect, and of the few that do, even fewer have kept those skills alive. This ain't racism. Would I buy a Swiss Leica? No problem! Would I buy a Czech Leica? Quite probably. An English Leica? Entirely possibly. A Japanese Leica? Without hesitation, if it were built the same way to the same standard as a German Leica, in which case it would probably cost even more. A Leica made by re-trained farm hands, no matter where they came from? Probably not.

Second point: not sure what you mean. What 'unnecessary bumps and inefficiencies' have you in mind? (I've been around the plant).

Third: more like 2x (Zeiss) to 4x (Voigtlander) and that's what it costs to make. Their profits are not excessive; they are just making a very good product, in a highly labour-intensive way. They couldn't halve their prices without making a significantly different and (many would say) inferior product.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[CameraQuest]

Last week at LHSA the owner of Leica expressed strong resolve to keep production in Germany. In my opinion this course of action will result in 10 years to Leica sales only to the very rich, and the retreat of Leica from many markets, including the US. I want Leica to survive and thrive. Most people I know in the photo biz wish Leica similar success.

I am not sure what percentage of "Made in Germany" goods must actually be must be produced in Germany, but I do know it is not 100%. Many Leica parts or optics are produced by Leica in Portugal or by the old Elcan facility in Canada.

Roland, I've spent time talking with Leica CEO's. As a result, I am fairly sure Leica management does indeed regard German labor costs as high. This is not an ethnic stereotype comment, just a comment of business, like China's labor costs being low. And yes I am talking about the M system price increases. That is only the Leica Camera line that has substantial sales. From what Leica dealers tell me, Leica 4/3 sales are so low as to be insignificant. And of course R sales are even worse. And no, price increases are not "Because they can." Leica management is very bright and dedicated. They want the long term success of the company, just like loyal Leica customers.

Leica takes an occasional look at RFF. I started this thread in hopes of giving Leica management yet one more reason to reconsider the one M lineup only "Made in Germany" sales strategy. A high percentage of buyers willing to buy same quality lower priced Leica products not made in Germany may give Leica reason to re-consider. Time will tell.

Stephen

 

[Roger Hicks]

There is only one reason why Leica (Camera AG) product price is as high at the moment: BECAUSE THEY CAN. Inellastic market, toys and luxury products. Etc.

Dear Roland,

Sorry, don't agree.

Leicas have not gone up that much in Euros. In dollars (the dollar has fallen from 90 cents to $1.40+ for the euro) it is another matter.

It is not a 'toy' or a 'luxury product'. It's just a very well made camera.

Consider also the nature of an inelastic market. If it is truly inelastic, there would be no need for the price to go down, would there? Elasticity applies to price falls as well as price rises. I'd say it's a highly elastic market: more money around = more Leicas sold, less money around = fewer Leicas sold and Leica going out of business because they can't/won't make cheap cameras. (At least, not M and R).

Cheers,

R.

 

[Finder]

Roger, you are on shakey ground:

A Leica made by re-trained farm hands, no matter where they came from? Probably not.

Are you implying that farmers are incapable of doing this? Are you saying Leica can only train certain people? I don't get this nor agree with this. You don't need a university degree to assemble cameras.

 

[Al Patterson]

I wonder whether if at some future date the dollar strengthened vs. the euro, would we see a price decrease in the USA? To put it another way, how much of the US increases are caused by the declining dollar? What kind of price increases have occured in Germany over the past 5 or 6 years?

And so far the only Leica I own, a CL, wasn't made in Germany. I'd buy a new CL or CLE made in Japan. Or Canada. As long as they don't outsource to China, we already get too much cheap stuff from there already.

 

[Roger Hicks]

I wonder whether if at some future date the dollar strengthened vs. the euro, would we see a price decrease in the USA? To put it another way, how much of the US increases are caused by the declining dollar? What kind of price increases have occured in Germany over the past 5 or 6 years?

Dear Al,

Or to put it another way again, have US prices gone up by 55-60 per cent since 2001, when the euro hovered around 90 cents US, +/- 2 cents? When today it's well above $1.40?

Assume (I don't know, and it's midnight, and I'm about to go to bed, so I'm not going to check) that prices have risen 10% in 5-6 years in Germany. US prices would have had to rise over 70% in the same period just to be paying the same as the Germans.

Most Americans just don't realize how much their currency has declined against the Euro.

Cheers (not that there's much to cheer about)

Roger

 

[Kim Coxon]

Firstly, it wasn't Roger who first mentioned farm hands. (See post 19 😉 )

Secondly, I fully agree that you do not need a university degree to assemble a camera. What you do need is a degree of skill and manual dexterity along with knowledge. The knowledge can be taught but the others come from experience. Until you gain that experience, you are not likely to produce something which meets the QC expected. If I had to re-locate, I would be looking for somewhere which had a possible workforce that already had the skill and experience required albeit in a slightly different field. I could then train them with the knowledge and be up and running in a fraction of the time that it would take for someone who is starting out in a completely different skill area. 😉

Kim

Roger, you are on shakey ground:

Are you implying that farmers are incapable of doing this? Are you saying Leica can only train certain people? I don't get this nor agree with this. You don't need a university degree to assemble cameras.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Firstly, it wasn't Roger who first mentioned farm hands. (See post 19 😉 )

Secondly, I fully agree that you do not need a university degree to assemble a camera. What you do need is a degree of skill and manual dexterity along with knowledge. The knowledge can be taught but the others come from experience. Until you gain that experience, you are not likely to produce something which meets the QC expected. If I had to re locate, I would be looking for somewhere which had a possible workforce that already had the skill and experience required albeit in a slightly different field. I could then train them with the knowledge and br up and running in a fraction of the time that it would take for someone who is starting out in a completely different skil area. 😉

Kim

Dear Kim,

Thanks for clarifying that. I hadn't seen the original query or I'd have said something very similar.

As it is, I'd add that I'd be pretty hesitant about hiring a third-generation factory worker as a farm hand, for exactly the same reasons as I'd not want to hire a sheep-farmer as a precision engineer. Learning to tend sheep is every bit as difficult as learning to assemble cameras, but it's a LOT easier to train someone if they have transferable skills.

There will always be a few who are 'naturals': who have been trying to escape sheep all their lives, or who would far rather tend sheep than a lathe. But I'd not want to rely on assembling a work-force of the former in rural Transylvania. Or of the latter in Leicester (one of the great British centres of optics and precision engineering).

Cheers,

Roger

 

[kully]

Firstly, it wasn't Roger who first mentioned farm hands. (See post 19 😉 )

Kim

Don't blame me 🙂 I took it from Mr. Hicks' post further up the page.

But reading your further posts Roger, I see I took gumption in error.

 

[NIKON KIU]

Some of us would not buy a Leica, period.

Kiu

 

[Rob-F]

Roger: Two companies authorized to make watches for American railroads were Elgin and Hamilton. Both American companies. Elgin was located in Elgin, Illinois.

Other examples come to mind. How about motion picture projectors? I haven't been in a projection booth in years, but I remember a number of top-quality precision projectors. Simplex, Century, Motiograph, and RCA/Brenkert come to mind.

Precision servomotors and resolvers for military radar tracking antennas.

An American company that makes a version of the IMAX projector for the US National Park Service. Not sure what their name is--Odyssey?

We can do it!

Edit: I looked it up. The projector was copied, by Neil Johnson, from the IMax Rolling Loop Projector; and made by Cinema Technologies, a company formed by Johnson. The National Park Service uses it because of their policy of buying American. Johnson studied the Imax machine both by reading the expired patents, and via direct study and measurement of the projector itself.

So what's my point? It's a helluva complicated machine, and it's made in America.

So: we can still do it!

Other examples of American Technology: The Mitchell motion picture camera (take a look at the movement in one!); and the 70mm Ultra-Panavision cameras.

 

[wgerrard]

I wonder whether if at some future date the dollar strengthened vs. the euro, would we see a price decrease in the USA?

We ought to see a price decrease in the U.S. due to the dollar's rise in value against the Euro. Whether or not we'd actually see Leica cut their prices is an open question. Frankly, they'd have every incentive to boost it to keep revenue at the same level.

Europeans fly to NYC for shoping sprees these days. Even with the airfare, they save money. It would be nice if the situation was reversed and Yanks could fly to Frankfurt and Berlin, credit cards at the ready.

 

[Finder]

Dear Kim,

Thanks for clarifying that. I hadn't seen the original query or I'd have said something very similar.

As it is, I'd add that I'd be pretty hesitant about hiring a third-generation factory worker as a farm hand, for exactly the same reasons as I'd not want to hire a sheep-farmer as a precision engineer. Learning to tend sheep is every bit as difficult as learning to assemble cameras, but it's a LOT easier to train someone if they have transferable skills.

There will always be a few who are 'naturals': who have been trying to escape sheep all their lives, or who would far rather tend sheep than a lathe. But I'd not want to rely on assembling a work-force of the former in rural Transylvania. Or of the latter in Leicester (one of the great British centres of optics and precision engineering).

Cheers,

Roger

From this argument, the most unlikely optical manufacturing nation to come into being would be Japan. And they do a pretty good job at it.