denkol
Newbie
Hi everyone-
I've just bought my self a Yashica and am contemplating my next step- buying the film/developer for it! I'm new to rangefinders and pretty new to film as well (i shot some at school when i was 15, but never got to choose films or developers back then). The main thing that I was dissatisfied about with my cheapish DSLR was it's lack of a good dynamic range or fast lense, and I can't really afford a 5D yet as I'm a student. Shooting film seemed like the easy/fun option, and I also wanted to engage more with the manual options that a film camera allows, you know- understand what real photographers once did...
sorry about the ramble, but my question is- what film should I use if I want to shoot daytime/nightime/indoor shots all on the same roll? I've read about pushing/pulling films like Kodak Tri-X 400 and Fuji Neopan 1600. what would you guys recommend? my yashica sets the exposure automatically, and has a max ASA 1000, so would pulling neopan back to 1000 give good results? also- what developer is a good idea for developing a roll that might have photos taken with a variety of ASAs? I've read somewhere about the miraculous powers of Diafine, but is there other stuff you'd suggest? I want good shadow details in my photos and medium contrast, and noise down to a minimum. I'm planning on using a relatively cheap flatbed scanner and then tweaking in PSP, so Diafine sound perfect for getting a nice readable DR.
please let me know what you think,
Denis
I've just bought my self a Yashica and am contemplating my next step- buying the film/developer for it! I'm new to rangefinders and pretty new to film as well (i shot some at school when i was 15, but never got to choose films or developers back then). The main thing that I was dissatisfied about with my cheapish DSLR was it's lack of a good dynamic range or fast lense, and I can't really afford a 5D yet as I'm a student. Shooting film seemed like the easy/fun option, and I also wanted to engage more with the manual options that a film camera allows, you know- understand what real photographers once did...
sorry about the ramble, but my question is- what film should I use if I want to shoot daytime/nightime/indoor shots all on the same roll? I've read about pushing/pulling films like Kodak Tri-X 400 and Fuji Neopan 1600. what would you guys recommend? my yashica sets the exposure automatically, and has a max ASA 1000, so would pulling neopan back to 1000 give good results? also- what developer is a good idea for developing a roll that might have photos taken with a variety of ASAs? I've read somewhere about the miraculous powers of Diafine, but is there other stuff you'd suggest? I want good shadow details in my photos and medium contrast, and noise down to a minimum. I'm planning on using a relatively cheap flatbed scanner and then tweaking in PSP, so Diafine sound perfect for getting a nice readable DR.
please let me know what you think,
Denis
bronney
Established
wrong camera.
wrong camera.
If you want to learn start with a metered manual camera such as a Yashica Lynx IC 5000, 5000E. The electros is aperture priority and you don't really learn as much as the computer is taking care of the shutter speed.
Start with a fully manual camera and learn the relationships of "stops" gives way better lessons. Also get the cheapest sekonic light meter, and learn the light.
If you're just starting out I don't recommend doing your own bw dev+print. Just shoot negs until you have a sense of the light first. Shoot stuff and when you really ran out of things to buy and things to do, pick up some paterson tank and spools. And ask questions at the place you're buying those. Peeps should be quite helpful if they're still holding onto the old world.
I actually find DSLR harder to use then film.
wrong camera.
If you want to learn start with a metered manual camera such as a Yashica Lynx IC 5000, 5000E. The electros is aperture priority and you don't really learn as much as the computer is taking care of the shutter speed.
Start with a fully manual camera and learn the relationships of "stops" gives way better lessons. Also get the cheapest sekonic light meter, and learn the light.
If you're just starting out I don't recommend doing your own bw dev+print. Just shoot negs until you have a sense of the light first. Shoot stuff and when you really ran out of things to buy and things to do, pick up some paterson tank and spools. And ask questions at the place you're buying those. Peeps should be quite helpful if they're still holding onto the old world.
I actually find DSLR harder to use then film.
Merkin
For the Weekend
I agree with bronney that a DSLR is harder to use than film, having used film from around age eight or nine to twenty-seven. In this day and age, however, film is definitely more of a PITA. I realize this can be a bit of a subtle distinction.
I also agree with bronney that you may be using the wrong camera, although I certainly cannot fault you for your choice, as the Yashica Electro 35 is a FANTASTIC fixed lens rangefinder camera, definitely one of the best. More on camera choice in a bit.
As to film, I would advise you to limit your ambitions as to your range of light, and start out (before you invest in a scanner, developers, stop bath, fixer, dark bag, tank, reel, thermometer, graduated cylinders, time, practice, etc...) with the Kodak BW400CN film, which is a c41 process black and white film. It can be processed at any minilab, be it walmart, costco, walgreens, cvs or whereever, and you can get (lo res) scans for only a couple bucks more. I would recommend, for best results, that you shoot that particular film at either ISO 200 or 320, as it is not a true black and white film. With my canon and pentax SLRs, it was a 200 speed film, but with my Leicas it was a 320 speed film. Try both and see which gives the best results. This way, you can have some feedback and justification before you spend the money and open up the can of worms that is home developing.
As to camera choice, as I said before, the Yashica Electro 35 is a fantastic camera, but it is not a camera I would recommend to a relative newbie. I would advise you to get your learning done on an inexpensive Craigslist SLR, such as a Pentax K1000, or whatever (imho loathsome) minolta that is going for 50 bucks because no one wants old minolta SLRs. Do a bit of research on Nikon (personal favorite) Olympus (second favorite, and best choice for future rangefinder camera users) Pentax (I personally started with a K1000, the ultimate student camera, millions were made and they are fantastic) Canon (personally I don't like canon, but there are loads of fantastic deals out there on AE-1p cameras with 'nifty fifty' lenses) , and Minolta (least favorite of all Japanese camera manufacturers, but they certainly have their following) SLR cameras, and figure out the best balance of price, bulletproofness, and quality. Your goal here should be to get a fully manual SLR with a working built in meter that does not require mercury batteries, and at minimum a 50mm lens that at least goes down to f2, although 1.8, 1.7, or 1.4 is better. At this point, if it has an LCD, avoid it, you don't need it. These fully manual cameras will allow you to more easily control your images in a wider variety of light qualities than your Electro 35 will. I hate to say it, but IMO, film SLR cameras are better for learning the basis of photography than film rangefinders, particularly the Aperture Priority FLRFs like the Electro 35 you have.
If you insist on sticking with the Electro 35, a couple of recommendations:
Go to your local college or University that teaches a basic photography 101 class, and buy the photography 101 textbook. READ IT. If you can, take or audit the class. This should provide you with a good, solid understanding of manual control (which you don't have), as well as the basic principles of photography. This will help you to best use your Aperture Priority camera, so that you know the AP settings that will have the best chance of giving you the shutter speed that you want at a given quantity of light.
Don't be afraid to miss shots.
Don't get so used to Aperture Priority that you are incapable of using other methods of exposure.
Don't invest in home developing until you are CERTAIN that film photography is the form of photography that you want to pursue for years to come, with all of the niggling costs along the way factored in. Do remember that digital, once you have mastered your DSLR and your post processing software, is cheaper in the long run (please don't start a flame war over this statement. If you take that much issue with it, send me a PM). Film in this day and age is an, in the long run, expensive process which can and cannot be worth it.
Above all, Good Luck, and I look forward to seeing your results!
Feel free to send a PM if you have any questions.
I also agree with bronney that you may be using the wrong camera, although I certainly cannot fault you for your choice, as the Yashica Electro 35 is a FANTASTIC fixed lens rangefinder camera, definitely one of the best. More on camera choice in a bit.
As to film, I would advise you to limit your ambitions as to your range of light, and start out (before you invest in a scanner, developers, stop bath, fixer, dark bag, tank, reel, thermometer, graduated cylinders, time, practice, etc...) with the Kodak BW400CN film, which is a c41 process black and white film. It can be processed at any minilab, be it walmart, costco, walgreens, cvs or whereever, and you can get (lo res) scans for only a couple bucks more. I would recommend, for best results, that you shoot that particular film at either ISO 200 or 320, as it is not a true black and white film. With my canon and pentax SLRs, it was a 200 speed film, but with my Leicas it was a 320 speed film. Try both and see which gives the best results. This way, you can have some feedback and justification before you spend the money and open up the can of worms that is home developing.
As to camera choice, as I said before, the Yashica Electro 35 is a fantastic camera, but it is not a camera I would recommend to a relative newbie. I would advise you to get your learning done on an inexpensive Craigslist SLR, such as a Pentax K1000, or whatever (imho loathsome) minolta that is going for 50 bucks because no one wants old minolta SLRs. Do a bit of research on Nikon (personal favorite) Olympus (second favorite, and best choice for future rangefinder camera users) Pentax (I personally started with a K1000, the ultimate student camera, millions were made and they are fantastic) Canon (personally I don't like canon, but there are loads of fantastic deals out there on AE-1p cameras with 'nifty fifty' lenses) , and Minolta (least favorite of all Japanese camera manufacturers, but they certainly have their following) SLR cameras, and figure out the best balance of price, bulletproofness, and quality. Your goal here should be to get a fully manual SLR with a working built in meter that does not require mercury batteries, and at minimum a 50mm lens that at least goes down to f2, although 1.8, 1.7, or 1.4 is better. At this point, if it has an LCD, avoid it, you don't need it. These fully manual cameras will allow you to more easily control your images in a wider variety of light qualities than your Electro 35 will. I hate to say it, but IMO, film SLR cameras are better for learning the basis of photography than film rangefinders, particularly the Aperture Priority FLRFs like the Electro 35 you have.
If you insist on sticking with the Electro 35, a couple of recommendations:
Go to your local college or University that teaches a basic photography 101 class, and buy the photography 101 textbook. READ IT. If you can, take or audit the class. This should provide you with a good, solid understanding of manual control (which you don't have), as well as the basic principles of photography. This will help you to best use your Aperture Priority camera, so that you know the AP settings that will have the best chance of giving you the shutter speed that you want at a given quantity of light.
Don't be afraid to miss shots.
Don't get so used to Aperture Priority that you are incapable of using other methods of exposure.
Don't invest in home developing until you are CERTAIN that film photography is the form of photography that you want to pursue for years to come, with all of the niggling costs along the way factored in. Do remember that digital, once you have mastered your DSLR and your post processing software, is cheaper in the long run (please don't start a flame war over this statement. If you take that much issue with it, send me a PM). Film in this day and age is an, in the long run, expensive process which can and cannot be worth it.
Above all, Good Luck, and I look forward to seeing your results!
Feel free to send a PM if you have any questions.
januaryman
"Flim? You want flim?"
I used to use Tri-X developed in D-76 and shot night and day. I was steadier back in the day when I could hand hold shots as low as 1/15 - I say try any of the good ISO 400 BW films out there today. Tri-X has more of a classic feel, and if I wanted to go back into the chemistry side of photography I'd snap up Tri-X and D-76 in a heartbeat. I loved the grain and tones. I took most of these using that combo. The color shots were either Kodachrome or Ektachome.
Oh. And BTW, my most popular series, the "ghostly/cemetery bride" shots were taken with a Yashica Minister D using Tri-X. Since that was the only time I ever "staged" a shoot, I wonder why I've never done it again, as it seems the big winners, aside from the WTC shots.
Oh. And BTW, my most popular series, the "ghostly/cemetery bride" shots were taken with a Yashica Minister D using Tri-X. Since that was the only time I ever "staged" a shoot, I wonder why I've never done it again, as it seems the big winners, aside from the WTC shots.
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denkol
Newbie
thanks for the responses,
that's actually the first thing I noticed with the yashica- it doesn't give me 100% manual which is what I wanted. My grandad's old soviet Zenit 12xp is a fully manual slr, along the lines of what you are suggesting, Merking. It's got a 50mm lense, f2-16 and the most basic of light meters. I've been taking it for a test run with some cheap colour film, and getting to grips with the relationship of f-stops, exposures and asa, and am getting the hand of it pretty quickly. I've actually been shooting digitally on my Canon dslr for about 5 years now, using manual most of the time, so I'm not entirely new to all this, but am very much enjoying the hands-on experience of turning mechanical dials instead of using an LDC screen. I'm thinking a lot more about waht I'm doing. With digital, I felt a bit disconnected with the whole process of image-production, it was too automatic and impresonal.
I'm finding development/printing/scanning costs in London labs/pharmacies are huge- around £10 for one film, so the idea of developing stuff at home seemed like a good idea, especially to keep up the quantity of photos that I was shooting in digital. I don't want to become precious or dismissive about what I can afford photograph, and the idea of having to pay £10 per 36 shots is quite discouraging imo. I can justify to myself investing in a flatbed scanner, being an arts student- it's something that I'll need regardless.
Also can anyone suggest an afordable flatbed scanner that I can get on ebay? I've been looking at the epson 4490 as a possible candidate. Will that be good enough for all the basics? considering I'm not going to be printing larger that A4 for now...
Cheers,
Denis
that's actually the first thing I noticed with the yashica- it doesn't give me 100% manual which is what I wanted. My grandad's old soviet Zenit 12xp is a fully manual slr, along the lines of what you are suggesting, Merking. It's got a 50mm lense, f2-16 and the most basic of light meters. I've been taking it for a test run with some cheap colour film, and getting to grips with the relationship of f-stops, exposures and asa, and am getting the hand of it pretty quickly. I've actually been shooting digitally on my Canon dslr for about 5 years now, using manual most of the time, so I'm not entirely new to all this, but am very much enjoying the hands-on experience of turning mechanical dials instead of using an LDC screen. I'm thinking a lot more about waht I'm doing. With digital, I felt a bit disconnected with the whole process of image-production, it was too automatic and impresonal.
I'm finding development/printing/scanning costs in London labs/pharmacies are huge- around £10 for one film, so the idea of developing stuff at home seemed like a good idea, especially to keep up the quantity of photos that I was shooting in digital. I don't want to become precious or dismissive about what I can afford photograph, and the idea of having to pay £10 per 36 shots is quite discouraging imo. I can justify to myself investing in a flatbed scanner, being an arts student- it's something that I'll need regardless.
Also can anyone suggest an afordable flatbed scanner that I can get on ebay? I've been looking at the epson 4490 as a possible candidate. Will that be good enough for all the basics? considering I'm not going to be printing larger that A4 for now...
Cheers,
Denis
bmattock
Veteran
4490 is fine if that's your price limit at the moment. I use one and it is fine. I prefer to use my dedicated Konica-Minolta Diamage Scan Dual IV for 35mm and the 4490 for medium format, but the Epson will do in a pinch. As always, there are tradeoffs. The 4490 has a lower DMAX, which basically just means it can't penetrate dense negatives quite as well as a dedicated scanner can. So exposure becomes more important if using the Epson.
arthur sadowsky
Established
These are all excellent observations with one exception/addition: by removing battery from your Yashica Electro 35 battery compartment you effectively convert your Electro 35 into fully manual camera with one speed only: the 1/500 sec (obviously in-camera light meter will not work and as btgc has corrected me "flash" and "B" settings will fire at 1/500 sec as well).
So, lets say if you're using any iSO400 film I suppose you can use your Electro 35 as your basic fully manual camera and you can get away with "Sunny 16" rule in the most cases.
Still I would highly recommend to buy and use any high quality (preferably digital, so you can use it for your digital photography as well) light meter.
I hope it helps
!
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btgc
Veteran
Arthur, without battery Electro fires at one and only one speed - 1/500th. Flash and bulb modes work as supposed only with battery installed. That's the way it works.
Recently my relative got flat battery in her Electro and I suggested to shoot one roll of Reala (ISO100) using f16 - that is f8 in sunshine, and open more as light decreases. With ISO400 film default speed is starting point for sunshine, exactly as you suggest.
Recently my relative got flat battery in her Electro and I suggested to shoot one roll of Reala (ISO100) using f16 - that is f8 in sunshine, and open more as light decreases. With ISO400 film default speed is starting point for sunshine, exactly as you suggest.
arthur sadowsky
Established
Thank you for your correction and yes, you're absolutely right: I just pulled battery from my Electron 35 GS and it fires at 1/500 sec at all settings.
All the best!
p.s.: I've fixed my original post.
btgc
Veteran
That happens to us when cameras are flooding drawers I have to compile reference chart with shutter speeds of P&S cameras I have.
I have to compile reference chart with shutter speeds of P&S cameras I have.
arthur sadowsky
Established
Lack of respond or... well, anything!
Lack of respond or... well, anything!
It's my true pleasure to have a conversation with you guys about this subject, but I wonder if whoever originated this thread had read/bothered to read our submitted comments/replies?
Lack of respond or... well, anything!
That happens to us when cameras are flooding drawers
It's my true pleasure to have a conversation with you guys about this subject, but I wonder if whoever originated this thread had read/bothered to read our submitted comments/replies?
denkol
Newbie
Hi there Arthur,
I have indeed read/bothered to read all the responses, though I have to admit that the discussion was only really useful to me up until halfway through (where I commented positively). To be honest, I have a limited interest in turning my Yashica into a useless single-speed camera by removing its batteries, though thanks for the advice- I'll keep it in mind in case the battery dies unexpectedly. I would like to once again thank bronney, Merkin, Januaryman and bmattock who actually provided comments that were directly relevant to the questions I was asking and who were genuinely interested in helping me out, and were not simply browsing rangefinderforum in order to post tangentially related misinformed comments on others' threads.
Best,
Denis
arthur sadowsky
Established
You very much welcome Denis!
My point was that this simple and inexpensive camera in the right hands and with right technological/mechanical knowledge could be turned into wonderful photographic device, in many cases outperforming more expensive models.
In any case you have a good time taking pictures (w/Yashica) and don't forget to upload them here on rangefinderforum.com,
all the best!
denkol
Newbie
ok- I guess if you really wanted to you could use the fixed 1/500 exposure without a battery when shooting during the day giving a EV range of 8.5-15 (with ASA400) which won't overexpose the film even in bright sunlight, and in darker situations you could put the battery back in and shoot on bulb setting at 1/30 with a range from 4.5-11. Because there's quite a big overlap in EV you won't get too many problems with DOF at wide aperatures, by shooting EV 11 with f16 1/30 and EV12 with f5.6 1/500. This give you a perfectly usable range of exposures EV4.5-15 with ASA400 (or even EV3.5-14 with ASA800 and EV6.5-17 with ASA100). I'm guessing this is what you were getting at?