Year End Results for Kodak

[Ted Striker]

It's a tiny part of the whole and there is no information at all about what we are interested in.

Incorrect. We are all interested in the future of Kodak. The entire report gives shareholders and analysis a state of how healthy the company is. I have zero interest in commercial printing but I sincerely hope that Kodak has tremendous success with that core product line because it will determine its stability and future.

 

[Ted Striker]

What can you draw from this?

Kodak has been burning cash year on year at a prodigious rate.

 

[olifaunt]

We are talking about Eastman Kodak. They are the manufacturer of all Kodak films!! Nothing has changed in this field since their chapter 11 insolvency.
Kodak Alaris is the distributor of all Kodak photo films (not motion picture films).

Ugh, I just read the Alaris annual report to try to figure this out. I forgot how revolting the business of business marketing was. I have to go take a shower now.

 

[Keith]

Kodak can go broke and the world will keep turning .. the beat goes on! 🙂

 

[blan01]

Fuji has been cutting their film products the last few years, it doesn’t look like Fuji is interested in film anymore, except their instax line
If Kodak goes broke, I’ll just have to shoot hp5 forever lol

 

[Ted Striker]

it would be interesting to know how the film division performed

I read the transcripts from the earnings call and there was not one mention of their film products. The company reported on various investments being made to try to grow revenue and earnings and none of these were related to film. The core product line is commercial printing and that is what will make or break the company.


As another poster said, still film's revenue and profits are just a rounding error to their CFO.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

I don't care for entire Kodak, except part which makes c-41 film and chemicals.
It is time for ADOX like companies. Not something huge in size. Huge companies doing other things are not sustainable in film market.

 

[HHPhoto]

Outwardly disappointing result but what is the complete picture.. e.g. if they've made a big investment in Ektachrome but the sales don't cover most of the financial year, and if sales are strong and on an upward path then it might be a different story next year. I hope so.

The problem for us is that in the balance sheet there is only the number of the whole CFD group. That is the group that makes movie film, archival film, still photo film and some other products.
So we don't know with which of the products the losses have been made.
At least the last number I've heard from Kodak at last year's Photokina is that about 20% of the revenue of the CFD group is from still photo film.

What we do know is
- that the demand for Kodak photo film is significantly increasing (they have explained that last Photokina)
- that the profit margins for film generally are tiny and not sustainable for the future: that is the reason why Fujifilm has increased their prices; Kodak and all the others will follow in the next two years.

I expect a adaption process in the short term future: The market will adapt to sustainable prices which allow film manufacturers staying profitable in the long term.

Cheers, Jan

 

[HHPhoto]

All the film renaissance talk and sky rocketing price of used cameras, then this.

It's the true color of the hype...

There is no contradiction:
The photo film revival is real. We've had a rff member meeting last Photokina and visited all film related companies which were exhibiting there: And all said that they are seeing increasing demand.

The problem in the market are the tiny or often non-existing profit margins for film. Because of that Fujifilm has increased their prices recently, to stay profitable and keep film production running in the long term. The other manufacturers will do the same sooner or later.

Cheers, Jan


P.S.: The CEO of ADOX explained the current margin problem of the film industry very well in his presentation at the Helsinki photo fair:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3bHwFlmBEY

 

[gavinlg]

....... It is time for ADOX like companies. Not something huge in size. Huge companies doing other things are not sustainable in film market.

This.

..... that the profit margins for film generally are tiny and not sustainable for the future: that is the reason why Fujifilm has increased their prices; Kodak and all the others will follow in the next two years....

Yet a company like Ilford is doing just fine. The issue, I suspect, is that once huge companies with big infrastructures like Kodak and Fujifilm cannot sustain themselves with their previous setups. Like Ko.Fe said above, I feel these companies need to split off their film divisions into smaller, less resource hungry companies to sustain their product lines.

 

[HHPhoto]

Fuji has been cutting their film products the last few years, it doesn’t look like Fuji is interested in film anymore, except their instax line

Fortunately that is not correct: Last Photokina Fujifilm very clearly explained that they will continue production of photo film. Their recent price increase supports that: Making the necessary step to keep the production profitable and ask long-term sustainable prices.
At the recent WPPI conference in Las Vegas Fujifilm said also very clearly to their customers there that they are prepared / preparing for the long term photo film production: "If needed, we will be the last man standing".

Cheers, Jan

 

[HHPhoto]

It is time for ADOX like companies. Not something huge in size. Huge companies doing other things are not sustainable in film market.

It is time for ADOX and companies like Kodak, Fujifilm, Ilford and Foma.
In an increasing market - that we have - that will be possible. We customers just have to pay sustainable prices for our products that make it possible for the manufacturers to be profitable.

And huge, diversified companies with film production are possible: Fujifilm is the best example: They make about 10% of their whole company revenue with silver-halide products, about 1.5 billion $ last year.

Cheers, Jan

 

[HHPhoto]

Yet a company like Ilford is doing just fine.

Not really. Their balance sheet is published yearly. They are profitable, but the profit is small. In the long run new investments in machinery are necessary, look at the presentation of the ADOX CEO I have posted. He explains the challenges of the industry very well.

The issue, I suspect, is that once huge companies with big infrastructures like Kodak and Fujifilm cannot sustain themselves with their previous setups.

The bigger companies have adapted. Now with increasing demand it will be easier for them to operate. But we have to support them accepting fair and sustainable prices.

Cheers, Jan

 

[Prest_400]

It is time for ADOX and companies like Kodak, Fujifilm, Ilford and Foma.
In an increasing market - that we have - that will be possible. We customers just have to pay sustainable prices for our products that make it possible for the manufacturers to be profitable.

And huge, diversified companies with film production are possible: Fujifilm is the best example: They make about 10% of their whole company revenue with silver-halide products, about 1.5 billion $ last year.

Cheers, Jan

Very much agree. And as Mirko said in his keynote, Kodak and Fuji hold the know how of color film. No one else will get up there now and the leap is huge. Downsizing is a challenge, as Kodak has Building 38. A facility made for the peak of the market. They did manage to downsize production runs, although I bet it's not the optimal set up compared to a small coater operation.

 

[Ted Striker]

Very much agree. And as Mirko said in his keynote, Kodak and Fuji hold the know how of color film. No one else will get up there now and the leap is huge. Downsizing is a challenge, as Kodak has Building 38. A facility made for the peak of the market. They did manage to downsize production runs, although I bet it's not the optimal set up compared to a small coater operation.

A former Kodak engineer stated over at apug.org that Building 39 could coat the entire world's demand for film in a single day if run at full speed. (of course that would be a single emulsion, which is not realistic but for discussion sake ignore that fact).


Think about that for a minute. That's how much over capacity a single company has. Fuji is probably the same. They have enormous infrastructure which has fixed costs but not enough revenue to support them. Nor demand. Fuji continues to drop emulsions, which further idles their plant.

 

[Prest_400]

I find ironic on how resilient film is at Eastman Kodak. Been the cash cow for many failed ventures and survived an incredible market onslaught through the digital revolution. And there it is. Haven't looked deeply, but the last words I remember around here is that Motion Picture and Stills film is profitable (the latter indicated by reintroducing TMZ).

If I were one of those billionaires with too much money I'd simply buy out and spin off the film division of Kodak.

Think about that for a minute. That's how much over capacity a single company has. Fuji is probably the same. They have enormous infrastructure which has fixed costs but not enough revenue to support them. Nor demand. Fuji continues to drop emulsions, which further idles their plant.

Which states how they managed, as they are producing niche film such as TMZ. Of course volumes are mainly from Motion Picture.


Fuji might not have the same problem as they have Instax keeping the infrastructure running. Integral film also requires film negative, and with that line at full steam it should keep the plant well operative.
I wonder however about how C41 and E6 lines sit or may be crunched, as the incentive might be to produce even more Instax. No direct source, but possibly the peel apart lines were scrapped in favor of Instax finishing equipment.

Fuji is interesting in how they seem to drop simpler lines (Acros should not be as complex as any E6 film) and that we don't really get any retiree insights in it. Hopeful that the price increase is for sustainability, and as a hobbyist, oh well, I'll just bear it.

 

[HHPhoto]

A former Kodak engineer stated over at apug.org that Building 39 could coat the entire world's demand for film in a single day if run at full speed.

No, Ron Mowrey / PE never said that. That is a myth. A misinterpretation which was stated again and again by appugers.

You can easily prove by yourself that this statement is completely wrong: Just have a look at Robert Shanebrooks excellent latest book "Making Kodak Film". There you find the exact numbers for Building 38. And then compare that with the whole global photo film production (25-30 million rolls p.a. for 135 and 120 format, + all sheet films), the instant film production (40-50 million packs p.a.), the movie film production, the industrial film production (X-Ray, which is still a huge market because of increasing demand from Asia served by Agfa, Fujifilm, Carestream and Foma), the aerial film production, the archival film production.
It is absolutely impossible to coat that huge film production in only one day at B38.

Honestly, there is so much nonesense flying around concerning film on the internet. Think twice before you post and share fake news. Lots of this nonsense can be easily identified by a little bit work done by yourself 🙂.

Cheers, Jan

 

[Ted Striker]

No, Ron Mowrey / PE never said that. That is a myth. A misinterpretation which was stated again and again by appugers.

You can easily prove by yourself that this statement is completely wrong: Just have a look at Robert Shanebrooks excellent latest book "Making Kodak Film". There you find the exact numbers for Building 38. And then compare that with the whole global photo film production (25-30 million rolls p.a. for 135 and 120 format, + all sheet films), the instant film production (40-50 million packs p.a.), the movie film production, the industrial film production (X-Ray, which is still a huge market because of increasing demand from Asia served by Agfa, Fujifilm, Carestream and Foma), the aerial film production, the archival film production.
It is absolutely impossible to coat that huge film production in only one day at B38.

Honestly, there is so much nonesense flying around concerning film on the internet. Think twice before you post and share fake news. Lots of this nonsense can be easily identified by a little bit work done by yourself 🙂.

Cheers, Jan

You are sadly, again, misinformed.

Ron DID say that and he was referring to simply 35mm, 120, and large format film. It was a hypothetical statement, not one that would be possible given that emulsion changes could not occur in such time.


You are so patently biased it isnt even funny anymore.

 

[Skiff]

I have both editions of Bob Shanebrooks outstanding book 'Making Kodak Film'. The first, smaller one and the recent, big one.
I've just looked at it, at the production capacity numbers of the remaining film coating machine in Building 38:

It is very clear: The statement that the current global yearly film production can be coated in only one day at B38 is absolutely wrong. Completely far from reality.

Whoever made that statement, he has talked nonsense. Period.
I cannot imagine that R. Mowrey has said that. I also follow him at apug / photrio since start of apug. If he really said that he must have had a bad day, smoked the wrong stuff 😉.

It is neither possible from the coating speed, nor from the emulsion kettle capacity (that is a bigger bottleneck). And the biggest bottleneck is the film finishing capacity: It's 50.000 rolls of 135 film per day at Kodak (one shift operation). So its absolutely impossible to produce millions of finished rolls of film per day there.

 

[brbo]

I

It is very clear: The statement that the current global yearly film production can be coated in only one day at B38 is absolutely wrong. Completely far from reality.

Could you care to "read out loud" the absolutely correct coating capacity of Kodak stated in that book?

Thanks!