Avotius
Some guy
Ok lets look at this a little bit more objectively people. This camera is over a thousand dollars. That is a lot of money regardless. I had a canon 30V that has never ever once missed a beat in 3 years and many hundreds of rolls of film though it. That camera cost a little more then 300 dollars. The zeiss ikon cost 4 times as much, and despite all this brand loyalty and whatnot, if I spend money on something I expect it to work, period. I had 3 of these damn things....THREE!!! and they were all bad. Im happy for those people with these cameras that had no problems, but frankly, I wont ever buy another one again, not because it doesnt say leica, not because its expensive, but because 0-3 is a bad score and for me if I had one I would always have that thought in the back of my head of "is it going to break, should I use it normaly or baby it, will it give me problems if I turn it on its side, blah blah blah" and there is no value in saving money for that.
Huck Finn
Well-known
Solinar said:
". . . at its core a Cosina." What the heck does that mean?
Huck Finn
Well-known
Avotius said:
. . . And the guy in this review that I've linked will never buy a Leica because of his bad experience. In his case, Leica wouldn't even honor his warranty.
www.thevooner.com/feature/2000/11/24/leica/leica.htm
Bad cases make bad law.
By the way, just to satisfy my curiosity, how did you determine that these rangefinders were misaligned?
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Avotius
Some guy
yeah, but my bad luck has been with zeiss not leica, so to each his own I guess, plus I really did try with the zeiss, I even considered getting a 4th since I had already gone through all the trouble and decided against it at the last moment.
I checked infinity with a hexanon 50 on the second one on buildings many miles away
I checked infinity with a hexanon 50 on the second one on buildings many miles away
Solinar
Analog Preferred
Huck Finn said:". . . at its core a Cosina." What the heck does that mean?
Strip away the Zeiss designed VF/RF, the upgraded Copal shutter, and some of the electronics. What's left are the Cosina built pieces, which are of modern post 1980 design and construction.
In this case, the shutter dial shaft which failed on this particular, looks to made of plastic. The tensioning spring in the above photos looks to be right out of a Praktica. It makes me conclude that no this isn't going to be another M2 or M3 with regards to longevity.
There is also the issue of parts availability and their distribution overseas. In addition to their original build quality, one reason that origninal Leitz Wetzlar Leicas have lasted so long is there has been an availability of spare parts, which fortunately has been carried forward by Leica Sohms after Leitz Wetzlar abandoned the business.
How are Cosina and Zeiss doing in making replacement parts for future repairs available?
Keep in mind that I own a $200 Cosina/Voigtlander Bessa R that I've had for a couple of years and I'm fully satisfied with my second-hand purchase. It does what I need it to do, that is take it with me to situations and locations where there is a possibility of losing or damaging one of my Leicas. I don't expect to carry forward four to five decades. The good new is neither will I in that regard.
Nachkebia
Well-known
Okey after owning Leica M7 for some time, also using M7 alone in london, I must admit I enjoy shooting with zeiss ikon more, in fact I find ergonomics of zeiss ikon to be better, it is not looking as elegant as M7 but it is better tool, not to mention how junkly build it is
Avotius
Some guy
Vladamir, want to sell your .58 m7 to me?
amateriat
We're all light!
This does remind me of the horror show I had in 1981 when both my brand-new Pentax LX bodies started locking up on me for no apparent reason, and numerous return trips to Pentax (when they had a facility on Long Island) didn't help things. Pentax certainly went to bat for me, but after that experience I vowed I wouldn't touch another Pentax with a bargepole (and I took a loss trading them hastily for a pair of Nikon F3s). And this, mind you, was their put-up-yer-dukes answer to the F3 (and Canon F-1, etc.). They eventually worked the bugs out of the LX, but I felt badly burned. Given my more-than-academic interest in the ZI, I really hope Zeiss gets the memo and gets it together (same deal with Leica and the M8...I want to see both these efforts succeed, but there'll be Hell to pay if these two don't get cracking).
- Barrett
- Barrett
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Nachkebia
Well-known
Avotius, Nope I love it, besides if I want to sell it I wont sell it to you! you have bad luck and you going to blame it on me
I love it, besides if I want to sell it I wont sell it to you! you have bad luck and you going to blame it on me
Avotius
Some guy
Nachkebia said:Avotius, Nope
you suck!and yes, I do have bad luck, especially this and last year. Bad karma, probably from spending too much time on here.
Nachkebia
Well-known
I love you too!
Olsen
Well-known
Look at these two brothers in arms; a Leica MP and a Zeiss Ikon.
The Zeiss Ikon will soon be sent to Carl Zeiss to tune the rangefinder and fix a bent lens barrel. Otherwise the finish is perfect with no rubber lining coming off and a laquer work no worse than the Leica.
The Leica has already been at the Leica factory. The previous owner left it in the sun which burned a hole in the cloth shutter. The Leica shutter, a rather primitive thing comparable to the ones found in ex.East German Praktika. You can reckon that the Zeiss Ikon shutter outlasts the Leica's by far. The surface/leather trim (or what youy call it) was also changed at the Leica factory. I really don't know why. The previous owner did'nt tell me.
Sure. There is this 'quality feel' about the Leica, - compared to the Zeiss Ikon. It is very much due to the weight. I see no other reason to that the MP is any definate higher quality than the Zeiss Ikon. Quite on the contrary.
One has already been at a major factory refurbish, the Leica. The other is on it's way. The first costs close to three times as much as the other.
The Zeiss Ikon will soon be sent to Carl Zeiss to tune the rangefinder and fix a bent lens barrel. Otherwise the finish is perfect with no rubber lining coming off and a laquer work no worse than the Leica.
The Leica has already been at the Leica factory. The previous owner left it in the sun which burned a hole in the cloth shutter. The Leica shutter, a rather primitive thing comparable to the ones found in ex.East German Praktika. You can reckon that the Zeiss Ikon shutter outlasts the Leica's by far. The surface/leather trim (or what youy call it) was also changed at the Leica factory. I really don't know why. The previous owner did'nt tell me.
Sure. There is this 'quality feel' about the Leica, - compared to the Zeiss Ikon. It is very much due to the weight. I see no other reason to that the MP is any definate higher quality than the Zeiss Ikon. Quite on the contrary.
One has already been at a major factory refurbish, the Leica. The other is on it's way. The first costs close to three times as much as the other.
Attachments
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ronnie_retro
Established
For those interested -
After reading T42's message about the shutter dial failure, I went home and adjusted the shutter dial and ISO speed setting on my Zeiss. I wanted to try to understand the problem a little better.
As far as adjusting the shutter speed, the dial rotates continuosly in either direction. You cannot apply a high amount of torque to the dial; it simply rotates if you attempt this. So as an engineer, I'd consider the use of an engineering grade polymer (a.k.a. plastic) a very suitable choice if this is the only way the post can be turned.
There may be a different issue with the ISO setting wheel. On my camera, a very stiff upward pull is required to change the setting. Maybe having to pull upward so strongly gets your hand in a mode where a lot of force can be inadvertently applied to the ISO dial. My experience was opposite this; I couldn't both pull upward strongly enough to release the ISO dial and apply a strong rotational force.
Not sure what happened here - poor assembly resulting in a dial than can be pulled out, or maybe an overly strong ISO spring that encourages the user to use high force. But at least I don't have to worry about adjusting the shutter speed.
I absolutely agree that at $1200 the owner should expect a high quality and reliable camera. Fortunately that's been my experience.
After reading T42's message about the shutter dial failure, I went home and adjusted the shutter dial and ISO speed setting on my Zeiss. I wanted to try to understand the problem a little better.
As far as adjusting the shutter speed, the dial rotates continuosly in either direction. You cannot apply a high amount of torque to the dial; it simply rotates if you attempt this. So as an engineer, I'd consider the use of an engineering grade polymer (a.k.a. plastic) a very suitable choice if this is the only way the post can be turned.
There may be a different issue with the ISO setting wheel. On my camera, a very stiff upward pull is required to change the setting. Maybe having to pull upward so strongly gets your hand in a mode where a lot of force can be inadvertently applied to the ISO dial. My experience was opposite this; I couldn't both pull upward strongly enough to release the ISO dial and apply a strong rotational force.
Not sure what happened here - poor assembly resulting in a dial than can be pulled out, or maybe an overly strong ISO spring that encourages the user to use high force. But at least I don't have to worry about adjusting the shutter speed.
I absolutely agree that at $1200 the owner should expect a high quality and reliable camera. Fortunately that's been my experience.
Huck Finn
Well-known
ronnie_retro said:
Fortunately that's been my experience as well. I paid more than $1200, so I feel even more strongly about it.
Ronnie, thanks for lending your engineering expertise to the discussion fo rthe second time on this problem.
T42's description ruled out wear or heavy use as a cause for the problem, so the problem must have been faulty assembly. And that's what warrantees are for - to protect us when human error at the factory releases a lemon on the market. Every manufacturer produces them - Leica included. When a manufacturer develops an error-proof system, they will eliminate warrantees because there will no longer be a need for them. Anyone who issues a warranty does so because they know that a problem of product breakdown may occur. Their job is to minimize such problems & fix them when they occur or replace the product if they can't fix it - as they did in this case.
If this were due to a design defect or inferior parts rather than an assembly error, I expect that after more a year of this camera being on the market, we would have heard of more instances of this problem than the one reported.
Zeiss reads this website, so I'm sure that they are reviewing this problem at the factory as we discuss it.
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Krosya
Konicaze
Huck Finn said:
I agree with you here. And I'm happy that you had a good run with your camera, although didn't you have to send it in right after you got it, to have something fixed? Or maybe I confused you with someone else. Well, anyway, while I agree about the warranty, and yes - it's nice to have it, as a potention buyer of ZI, reports like this worry me. I really , really wanted to get the ZI. And who knows - maybe I will in a future, if I feel more comfortable with their QC. It really does look good on paper - lots of features for a well, fair price. However, as of right now, I felt more comfortable about buying a used M6 without ANY warranty, vs brand new ZI with it's Full warranty.
Also, there is always a chance that warranty could denied - as may say that camera was abused and therefore it voids warranty. Wear or ZI's cover in this case bothers me as much - looks more like poor choice of materials for such a camera to me.
As I said - I really am not trying to bash ZI here, as I really wanted to buy one. So, I hope posts like mine and all the others that (as some may think) give ZI hard time, will actually benefit everyone by Zeiss offering a better product in a future.
Joerg
Dilettant
Krosya said:
Case rested! Good luck! Please factor in $300 for a CLA for your M6. Also you will not have AE. But a well buitl heavy camera.
Sounds like bashing to me. I have yet to hear that Zeiss does not respond in the most cutomer friendly manner and takes care of their customers.
Enjoy your Leica M6!
Ciao
Joerg
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Olsen
Well-known
I went through a carton full of 2.hand M6 at this renowned photo shop in Copenhagen (Foto/C). Not one of them were in working order! Not one! Repair cost could mount to 6 - 7.000 DKK (900 US $) I was told. Further; they all had a pritty much a shaggy finnish. Particularly the ones in black elox. Looked like pairs of worned out shoes. The shiny ones looked far better, though.Krosya said:
So, happy hunting!
Having both a ZI and a Leica MP I am in no doubt that the ZI is a far better buy and has a finnish which is just as good as any Leica. Add to this that the Leica shutter takes max. 100.000 exposures before it has to be renewed, while the ZI will take the double. At least. The Leica shutter is a knot of springs - that will brake sooner or later, while the ZI has a few magnets.
That Leica gets away with making such a primitive and unreliable camera to such an astronomical price is beond me.
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Huck Finn
Well-known
Krosya said:
Krosya,
I completely understand your feelings. I was very, very close to buying a Hexar RF a few years ago. I liked the camera very much - still do - but all of the internet reports scared me off. Like you, I found it hard to go into unknown territory for a significant dollar investment with nagging doubts.
I have not experienced any problems with my ZI. Have not sent it back for any service whatsoever. (You may be thinking of Mike Elek, aka ZeissFan.) It worked perfectly out of the box & still does. No RF alignment problems at all. I bought one of the very first ones & it travelled 10,000 miles from Dr. Joseph Yao in Hong Kong to reach me. Plenty of opportunity for the rangefinder to get knocked out of whack in shipping, but it didn't happen. I think that my experience is the norm.
The one problem that seems to be reported with some frequency is rangefinder misalignment. I'm not sure that this is a defect in either the camera or the design. My suspicion is that this is due to the fact that so many RF purchases are being made over the internet or through mail order rather than over the counter. No QC at the factory can control misadventures that occur in shipping. Dr. Yao is primarily a Leica dealer. He told me that he recommends to his customers that they not put their cameras on the floor of a car when they are driving because vibration & bumps in the road can cause misalignment. He was talking about Leicas. A rangefinder is a precision instrument that is somewhat delicate. I suspect that misalignment problems had some small role to play in the shift to SLRs40+ years ago. I don't want to hear from Leica owners who say I've owned a Leica for years & have never had a misalignment problem. Well, I've in my second year with my ZI & haven't either. There are thousands of ZIs out there & dealers are not swamped with returns due to misalignment. It happens & I don't know what to do about it other than to buy from a dealer over the counter where the alignment can be checked before purchase & then be careful with the camera in use. Reports from pros like Xray & Tom Abrahamsson, who have put the camera to heavy use, demonstrate that it is solid, but stuff happens . . . even with a solid, well built camera.
The problems experienced by Vlad & T42 are unfortunate. If I had their experience, I wouldn't want to look at another ZI again. But that doesn't change the fact that these are two isolated experiences in many thousands of sales. I assure you that Zeiss is aware of these cases & even though they are rare, Zeiss takes them seriously & is evaluating any problems that customers experience with their cameras - these two included.
The funny thing about quality control issues with the ZI is that QC is one of the major upgrades that Zeiss instituted with the production of this camera system. It used to be routine for new cameras to incude an inspection certificate in the box. My Canonet, bought in 1977 did. You don't find that any more - except with a Zeiss Ikon & ZM lenses. A certificate, signed by the person who inspected the camera or lens, is included in the box. It's one of the things you pay for. Such a system wouldn't have detected the problems Vlad or T42 experienced. They didn't detect any problems when they inspected their new cameras either. OTOH, alignment problems can be detected at the factory, which is why I think that they are the result of something that is happening between the time they leave the factory after inspection & the time the customer receives them, i.e. in shipping.
I'm encouraged that Zeiss is establishing a USA service center to offer repairs & warranty service which will minimize transportation distances. Some people will even be able to drive there & drop their camera off. I also think that it shows that Zeiss is serious about this system. Providing a support system which includes a dealer network & service centers around the world are just two indicators. The Zeiss Ikon is truly a system camera which now includes 10 lenses, auxiliary finders, grip, shades, diopters, SW version, etc. My experience with Zeiss is that they respond to customers' concerns & value communication with them. I believe that they want this product line to succeed & that they will be around to support it. I don't think that they are in it just for the quick buck. They are too big a company & have no need for such forays.
I will probably seek any needed service for my ZI from Kinoglass, who has posted here on RFF. When I learned that he is in New Haven, CT, I was delighted. He is just down the road from me & I don't have to worry about shipping. I'd rather do my own drop off & pick up without the worry of damge in transit. Rich Schleuning, the Zeiss USA camera rep, is in New Jersey, so I expect that their service center will also be in that area, convenient for a lot of people in the NY/NJ area. Tony Rose has his own service tech, convenient for a lot of people in the LA area.
I hope you enjoy your Leica, a wonderful camera in its own right. I'm glad that we have choices in the rangefinder world today - something that didn't exist 10 years ago. As an eyeglass wearer, the ZI is the camera of choice for me. The viewfinder is wonderful, much better for me than when I tried an M6.
Cheers,
Huck
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Mazurka
Well-known
Huck Finn said:
That reminds me ... Cosina's probably a more committed partner than Kyocera. After all, Mr Kobayashi can't afford to terminate their photographic business.
kevin m
Veteran
Yes, the premature death of the Hexar RF can largely be blamed on the internet and its viral misinformation. Thank God I had actually used the camera extensively before I read all the reports of 'back focus' and 'Leica lens incompatibility' issues, otherwise I might have sold the thing in a panic.
The funniest thing I remember reading was Mr. Put's assertion that mounting a Leica lens on a Hexar RF body was 'like putting a BMW engine into a Mercedes.'
:bang: