How long do we think digital Leica M cameras will last?

I know everyone means well but why is this turning into a film Leica is better than a digital Leica? We know the longevity argument, but it’s not the question the OP asked.

I don’t own a digital Leica but I don’t knock those that do. If I ever go to buy one, it would probably be an M8 as the images I have seen from that camera are really appealing - although the camera is getting very long in the tooth now.
 
raydm6 said:
I know everyone means well but why is this turning into a film Leica is better than a digital Leica? We know the longevity argument, but it’s not the question the OP asked.

I don’t own a digital Leica but I don’t knock those that do. If I ever go to buy one, it would probably be an M8 as the images I have seen from that camera are really appealing - although the camera is getting very long in the tooth now.
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Not at all R..... no mention at all that one was better than the other, rather a wistfulness that a well-engineered machine (& expensive) capable of recording remarkable images is a technology that inevitably will be obsolete.
It's a big change in the history of photography. People still make tin-types, use glass plates, regularly make film photos with cameras up to a century old.
There's an appreciation of things that are still useful...Stradivarius & Guarneri violins, old time pieces.
Wonderful images are still being made with cameras that are long-in-the-tooth; old Linhofs, Deardorffs, Calumets......
& it will be a sad day to see a line-up of Leica digital Ms on a museum shelf, mute as bricks.
 
An old friend continues to use his beloved Leica Digilux 2. I recovered it for him last year. His only problem is that the batteries seem to be plentiful and cheap in every country in the world except the UK...
 
38Deardorff said:
I guess it depends on your point of view/philosophy. It's a sad day when you buy a $9000 USD camera body that becomes obsolete in a relatively short period of time....particularly when historically photographic equipment has proven to have longevity.
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I think that obsolete is a strong term. That 2000 Sony still cranks out good images. More recent cameras can do better. So that $9000 camera will always be good, but there might be cameras better.

In terms of speed and motorcycles, today's out of the showroom bikes are faster than racing bikes were that scared the hell out of us in Isle of Man races of the past. The bikes from the 80's are still great bikes, race bikes and street bikes. It's just that the technology has moved along. 75 MPH is still 75 MPH.

With analog the progress was pretty much confined to lenses. And some of those retro lenses ares still great. Look at the Sonnars from mid-30's forward. Skyllaney did create a marvelous update of the '34 5cm 2.0 Sonnar.

So cameras are a thing in motion, but it is confined to digital. That a new one may be an improvement does not mean the old one is obsolete. Read Overgaard's 9+ page review of the M9. And many here will tell you the M9 is as good as it gets. The M9 still is a great camera. I do not see it becoming "obsolete." The M8/8.2 is also good with color and I have an M240 which has nice solor. All of these are old but I would never accept them as obsolete.

This is still a nice photo, from a camera 16 years old. Obsolete? Nah, not yet.


L1002396e M9/Amotal by West Phalia, on Flickr
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Digital cameras in general, just as film ones have longevity divided by two parts.

First, is how well components are made. To me the only trusted "made" is in Japan. Canon DSLRs will lasts decades with light use.
Most likely same is for Canon SLRs with electronics.

Film Leicas. Light use, maybe decades as well. But they needed CLA. Winogrand has to bring them for service. How long service will be available...

How long parts will be available?

Take design flawed Barnacks with plastic VF/RF rear frame. They do crack, lens gets lost and here is no replacement lenses anymore.

This is part two of longevity. Parts availability. With where manufacturing of electronics is going it is ten years or so.
But we never know. Electronics are getting smaller. Where might be modules with electronic only shutters which will retrofit to digital Ms.

Same could be with mechanical parts in near future. You drop something in receiver, AI analyzes it, plus manual data entry and copy is 3D cooked.
 
boojum said:
I think that obsolete is a strong term. That 2000 Sony still cranks out good images. More recent cameras can do better. So that $9000 camera will always be good, but there might be cameras better.

In terms of speed and motorcycles, today's out of the showroom bikes are faster than racing bikes were that scared the hell out of us in Isle of Man races of the past. The bikes from the 80's are still great bikes, race bikes and street bikes. It's just that the technology has moved along. 75 MPH is still 75 MPH.

With analog the progress was pretty much confined to lenses. And some of those retro lenses ares still great. Look at the Sonnars from mid-30's forward. Skyllaney did create a marvelous update of the '34 5cm 2.0 Sonnar.

So cameras are a thing in motion, but it is confined to digital. That a new one may be an improvement does not mean the old one is obsolete. Read Overgaard's 9+ page review of the M9. And many here will tell you the M9 is as good as it gets. The M9 still is a great camera. I do not see it becoming "obsolete." The M8/8.2 is also good with color and I have an M240 which has nice solor. All of these are old but I would never accept them as obsolete.

This is still a nice photo, from a camera 16 years old. Obsolete? Nah, not yet.


L1002396e M9/Amotal by West Phalia, on Flickr
​
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All true....but 16 yrs, or 18 yrs for the M8 is hardly earth-shattering & when the discussion turns to batteries......the well may run dry before we reach 40 yrs....look at computers as a comparable.....
we now return to the regularly scheduled programme.... 😉
 
raydm6 said:
I know everyone means well but why is this turning into a film Leica is better than a digital Leica? We know the longevity argument, but it’s not the question the OP asked.

I don’t own a digital Leica but I don’t knock those that do. If I ever go to buy one, it would probably be an M8 as the images I have seen from that camera are really appealing - although the camera is getting very long in the tooth now.
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Yes, it is about how long they will last and then came the "obsolete" point which is what drove me. How long will they last? Hmmm. I have stereo gear and transistor radios over 30 years old which work just fine. Digital gear can last a long time if its parts are good parts. That the newer cameras deliver better images makes the transition easier, but not necessary. My M8 still works fine, and yes, it does seem to have a special color, not as vivid as the M9. A Goldilocks. The M8 came out in 2006. That's nearly 20 years ago.
 
38Deardorff said:
All true....but 16 yrs, or 18 yrs for the M8 is hardly earth-shattering & when the discussion turns to batteries......the well may run dry before we reach 40 yrs....look at computers as a comparable.....
we now return to the regularly scheduled programme.... 😉
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Batteries are the Achilles heel of digital cameras, and also a pressure point when exerted. With analog it is film. Now it is here, now it is not. It has made a comeback but if the market softens how many will hang on making film? So in that both modes are vulnerable. Come to think of it, so are we.
 
Disappointed_Horse said:
I've never owned a BMW either, but I have owned Toyotas and Hondas and have put over 200,000 miles on some of them. I don't think a luxury brand car would last longer than a Toyota or a Honda, which is one reason I've never felt much need or desire to buy one. (Actually, a friend of mine is a Mercedes mechanic and he says that if you want a Mercedes, you should also have a Toyota to drive while the Mercedes is in the shop.)
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Driving rear wheeler in snow and ice is something which needs lots of electronics or lot of skills which are hard to gain. But I drove Landcruiser in Russian winters. Just not as fast as BMW. Yet, where they crawl over speedbumps, my Landcruiser did needed to even slowdown.

Just as with Leicas, Mercedes is not working tool anymore. I remember Helsinki of nineties. Taxis were Volvos and Mercedes. Came back in 2023... Uber drivers on Teslas.

Our company fleet has Volvos, Mercedes and Audi. Opel, Peugeot as well. Diesel, gas-hybrids and electrical ones.
Every time I switch back to my family owned Mazda 2 hybrid which is assembled on Yaris line in France it is liberation from design, ergonomics flaws and joy to drive.
 
Ko.Fe. said:
How long parts will be available?

Take design flawed Barnacks with plastic VF/RF rear frame. They do crack, lens gets lost and here is no replacement lenses anymore.

This is part two of longevity. Parts availability. With where manufacturing of electronics is going it is ten years or so.
But we never know. Electronics are getting smaller. Where might be modules with electronic only shutters which will retrofit to digital Ms.

Same could be with mechanical parts in near future. You drop something in receiver, AI analyzes it, plus manual data entry and copy is 3D cooked.
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This is the crux of the issue. Mechanical film cameras are reverse-engineerable, and replacement parts can be made relatively simply. With the example you gave - the plastic surround of the VF/RF - there are replacement parts easily available right now. I bought one just a month or two ago to replace the 70 year old frame that finally cracked on my IIIf this year. Other internal parts that fail - ribbons, shutter blinds, even gears and cogs - can all be manufactured by people who know the specs if they have the right tools.

Even with optical components like those eyepiece lenses: if there's demand, they can be manufactured. Someone in Japan is making replacement elements for haze-etched elements in one of the Canon LTM lenses.

But digital cameras? Replacements for key components are much harder to manufacture. Look at the M9: the second companies stopped making the CCD sensor unit, Leica could no longer replace the failed units, and no one is realistically going to be able to DIY replacement sensors down the line. It's just too specialised, the manufacturing too complex.
 
Coldkennels said:
This is the crux of the issue. Mechanical film cameras are reverse-engineerable, and replacement parts can be made relatively simply. With the example you gave - the plastic surround of the VF/RF - there are replacement parts easily available right now. I bought one just a month or two ago to replace the 70 year old frame that finally cracked on my IIIf this year. Other internal parts that fail - ribbons, shutter blinds, even gears and cogs - can all be manufactured by people who know the specs if they have the right tools.

Even with optical components like those eyepiece lenses: if there's demand, they can be manufactured. Someone in Japan is making replacement elements for haze-etched elements in one of the Canon LTM lenses.

But digital cameras? Replacements for key components are much harder to manufacture. Look at the M9: the second companies stopped making the CCD sensor unit, Leica could no longer replace the failed units, and no one is realistically going to be able to DIY replacement sensors down the line. It's just too specialised, the manufacturing too complex.
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The M9 is one example from hundreds. It is peculiar to the M9, it is not a digital characteristic so it is an outlier rather than pertinent. And if you got it replaced you are good to go. Mine is ratty on the outside but the inside is Leica replaced sensor and circuit board. Good to go. I am not sure of the longevity of these cameras. But I do think they will easily last as long as a table radio.
 
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boojum said:
The M9 is one example from hundreds. It is peculiar to the M9, it is not a digital characteristic so it is an outlier rather than pertinent.
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I think you're right - but only in so much as the M9 is one of the only cameras of the era that people are so insanely wedded to. How many other digital cameras from 2009 are still selling for four figures and being waxed lyrical about on the internet? I don't know anyone still using a Nikon D3S or the Canon EOS-1D Mark IV, personally.

Eventually, all things fail - entropy is a bitch like that. It's not if, it's when. The time scale in question might not be relevant to you or me, but your chosen/most beloved camera/car/tool/toy will fail at some point. And as devices get more complex, the components more specialised, the facilities to manufacture them more expensive... the less likely we'll be able to keep them going.

For comparison, I picked up a 1970s record player from a second-hand store back in 2013. It needed a new stylus and a new drive belt for the turntable, and then it was as good as new, and is still running fine today. Simple components, easily sourced. On the other hand, I've lost count of the amount of CD players I've owned since the 90s that have basically had to go to landfill due to failed laser units that weren't user-replaceable as they weren't standardised and easily-sourced parts.

Which reminds me, I've got a dead iPod upstairs that I keep meaning to repair...
 
raydm6 said:
Non-gelatin silver print portrait using Grok AI.

digital with a film look

Are we having fun yet?

View attachment 4863560
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Done digitally. Digital can imitate analog. We know that. But it can also easily surpass analog with lower grain, wide dynamic range, higher ISO's and so on. But what does this have to do with how long the damned thins will last?

Digital is here to stay. It offers much. Analog is here to stay, yes, but as a hobby thing for the most part.

Leica moved from Barnack to M bodies as the only form change they have ever made in RF cameras. The guts have changed to digital but the form is still the same. So far the rub is the batteries. There is much teeth gnashing and hair pulling over the Leica battery policies.

There is the forewarned digital failure but there are a lot of old digitals out there working just fine. I think we ill just have to hang around and see. Right now it is mostly conjecture and as the adage goes, "You guess is as good as mine."
 
Except the M8 and M9 (two cameras I despised) I purchased my digital M cameras (M-P 240, M10-P, and M11-P) with the intention of using them until they were no longer serviceable. But in each of these cases (M-P 240 and M10-P) when the right opportunity presented itself to purchase an upgrade I did it. With each upgrade so far I've been able to recover most (~70% - mostly due to selling expenses) of the cost of acquiring the upgrade by selling the previous model.

However, for the most part, I've found these digital Leicas more reliable than expected. Should I decide to hang onto it, based on my experience, I would expect my M11-P to last 20-years or more. I may be delusional, but that's my expectation.
 
Right to repair is a legal right for owners of devices and equipment to freely modify and repair products such as automobiles, electronics, and farm equipment. Right to repair may also refer to the social movement of citizens putting pressure on their governments to enact laws protecting a right to repair.[1]

Common obstacles to repair include requirements to use only the manufacturer's maintenance services, restrictions on access to tools and components, and software barriers.

Proponents for this right point to the benefits in affordability, sustainability, and availability of critical supplies in times of crisis.
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Right to repair - Wikipedia
 
I think the board knows that Leica really upsets me with their after-sale policies. Support/repair is legendarily slow and expensive. Batteries are rare, expensive and a trip to Lourdes is easier. I understand the Ferrari is as much fun to deal with. My gripe is that it does not have to be this way. They could do better, so why aren't they?
 
boojum said:
I think the board knows that Leica really upsets me with their after-sale policies. Support/repair is legendarily slow and expensive. Batteries are rare, expensive and a trip to Lourdes is easier. I understand the Ferrari is as much fun to deal with. My gripe is that it does not have to be this way. They could do better, so why aren't they?
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Because they are selling all the cameras they can make regardless of their poor customer service.
 
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