100 pictures from the last two days in istanbul

Am aware of the development in recent years, but with no local contacts I must ask: Any chance/risk the army will take control as it used to and restore secular rule? Or has Erdogan managed to replace all the old guard and their apprentices?

I am not advocating one or the other - just curious whether we will see a 5th coup and what local anti Erdogan voters would prefer - status quo or the army

Xpanded
 
xpanded said:
Am aware of the development in recent years, but with no local contacts I must ask: Any chance/risk the army will take control as it used to and restore secular rule? Or has Erdogan managed to replace all the old guard and their apprentices?

I am not advocating one or the other - just curious whether we will see a 5th coup and what local anti Erdogan voters would prefer - status quo or the army

Xpanded
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people have been speculating about the military a lot. no official statements so far afaik, hard to make any kind of predictions.
they're not best buddies with the police in any case.
 
also, i forgot to mention that i was with the guys who threw molotovs yesterday morning. i saw them preparing them, and i ducked behind the very front barricades with them to escape toma water (and the red **** they're spraying). i have to agree that -some- of them (as well as some of the "kurdish terrorists with öcalan flags") seemed a little dodgy indeed. as suggested by different sources, -some- of them might not have been actual protesters, but agitators brought in in order to justify police violence.
 
xpanded said:
Am aware of the development in recent years, but with no local contacts I must ask: Any chance/risk the army will take control as it used to and restore secular rule? Or has Erdogan managed to replace all the old guard and their apprentices?

I am not advocating one or the other - just curious whether we will see a 5th coup and what local anti Erdogan voters would prefer - status quo or the army

Xpanded
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If you had asked this 5 or 6 years ago, I would have said "maybe". But now it is not possible at all. Because all "secular" army officers are in jail and the government placed their "officers" into the army. So, no.. Not possible.

On the other hand; we, the protestors would never ask for military. They never brought freedom to anybody and never will. Intervention from military will only make things much worse than they are. We want to live neither military controlled nor islamic controlled country.

We believe people can earn their freedom only by themselves.
 
Thanks for the info. I was not aware that the purges were so deep. Thought it only was 1-2 highest layers.

I certainly hope that you succeed.
 
Time for the Italian option

Time for the Italian option

Maybe it is time to go Italian? I remember seeing a tv spot about a farmer's demo in Italy some years back. The police in their fancy designer clothes were attacked with stinking slurry. They were not amused, but it did dampen their spirits...

Xpanded
 
Has there ever been a national poll of all citizens to see which percentage favor a secular state or not?

I am asking this question because the proportion of citizens having Islam as religion in Turkey is higher than in some "Islamic Countries".
If the vast majority favors a secular state, then this is a clear sign that such a protest is about defending the rights of the majority.
The secular system did not come to Turkey through a voting process, I think.
 
The bladder inside of soccer balls is dipped latex, the best material for slingshots. Cut with no nicks in a long spiral strip, double for more power. Just sayin. http://www.melchiormenzel.de/making_rubber_attach.html
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and

also, i forgot to mention that i was with the guys who threw molotovs yesterday morning. i saw them preparing them, and i ducked behind the very front barricades with them to escape toma water (and the red **** they're spraying).
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I would just point out that this plays right into the hands of the Erdogans of this world.

I can imagine how angry the opposition are in Turkey but the more violent the confrontation the less convinced the voters become. Peaceful protesters attacked by vicious uniformed thugs moves the onlookers to the protestors' side. The disciplined forces of law and order attacked by vicious tearaways moves the onlookers to the government's side.

It may not be "right" but it is human nature, as Ghandi showed.
 
Sejanus.Aelianus said:
and



I would just point out that this plays right into the hands of the Erdogans of this world.

I can imagine how angry the opposition are in Turkey but the more violent the confrontation the less convinced the voters become. Peaceful protesters attacked by vicious uniformed thugs moves the onlookers to the protestors' side. The disciplined forces of law and order attacked by vicious tearaways moves the onlookers to the government's side.

It may not be "right" but it is human nature, as Ghandi showed.
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This is what the shah did back in the 70s in Iran........
 
If we focus on the photos here, that would be best. Else, we have a highly sensitive political thread, which may not be suitable for RFF. It is just my personal opinion.
 
buzzardkid said:
Yeah,

but Turkey is a western state. It is not a muslim state, no theocracy like Iran or a fake democracy with a dictator like Syria or Egypt was, but a true democracy. It's founder Atatürk in the 1920's abolished Arab writing and introduced the western alphabet, changed calendars twice to leave Arab calendars and incorporate the western calendar, and organized the state to keep religion at bay and secure a secular state. Turkey has been considered a candidate to join the EU for almost a decade, until Erdogan decided to steer it away from that candidacy around 2005: too much interference with human rights, tax regimes, international trade and law from the EU made him turn towards the arab nations in the region.

Most Turks, especially those living in the larger cities, are as western as the people living in former communist countries in Europe. There's really not much difference in standards of life, popular beliefs, media penetration etc between city dwellers in countries like Turkey, Bulgaria, Rumania, Greece, Serbia, etc. It's mostly in the countryside where people are more conservative, where the main differences can be found between citizens of these states.

Although I have never been to Turkey, it is of special interest to me lately as I am researching for a novel that will be situated in the Turkish province of Hatay, about a century ago. Oddly, the inability of people to live together is a theme in the story...
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Lets not put personal opinions like facts here. Erdogan did not steer away, frankly he did all he can even more do enter imho. It was EU canceling the further negotiations as Turkey did not want to accept the so called Armenian gencoide. No idea what to do with EU. There are 70 million people living in Turkey and similar things happen in Brazil (due to increase bus ticket prices), even in UK (before G8 summit) lately too. And happened in US&Canada too. This is a community and the government came with people's votes 50% or 49%. This is the definition of democracy (http://www.1215.org/lawnotes/lawnotes/repvsdem.htm). The crowd in Taksim is a mixture of different groups even containing the well known terroristic groups of people (taking benefit of the crowd). The police has no way of differentiating those btw normal ones. Besides you can not blame the whole department because of some. Anything you spread or write should be analyzed and posted carefully. If people continue to react to aggression with aggression the things will ascalade. There are more democratic and efficient ways to express yourself than doing demonstrations and throwing stones to the police. If you dont throw there will be some taking benefit of the chaos. I think it is best to stop the chaos and go home for the benefit of everyone.
 
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