AP review of Digital Modul R

jaapv said:
I think you probably consider people who prefer a Morgan over a better specified
and far more comfortable Hyundai, a 100.000 UDS Blancpain watch over a more accurate
Swatch, a 1000 $ Mont Blanc pen over a 10 $ Parker etc.as mad as Leica buyers..
Hell, you probably buy your wife Zirconia jewelry instead of diamonds! 😀

Well if it is a professional salesman that needs to travel 30000 miles a year yes, preferring a Morgan over a better specified and far more comfortable Hyundai is madness.
Same goes for a bank manager that buys MontBlanc pens for the employees to write with, or buys Blancpain watches to give away to customers to publicize the firm.

Most people around here (including me) sees the Rangefinder camera as an object of pleasure, while the SLR is seen as a professional tool, and as a pro tool Canon beats Leica as Hyunday beats Morgan.

Of course if your Leica SLR is a pleasure object, then things are very different.

Also the bank manager that buys Parkers, or even cheaper pens, for the employees, does not necessarily buy zircons instead of diamonds for his wife.
 
jaapv said:
I think you probably consider people who prefer a Morgan over a better specified
and far more comfortable Hyundai, a 100.000 UDS Blancpain watch over a more accurate
Swatch, a 1000 $ Mont Blanc pen over a 10 $ Parker etc.as mad as Leica buyers..
Hell, you probably buy your wife Zirconia jewelry instead of diamonds! 😀

There is nothing wrong with giving preference to an item for reasons other than praticality. Heck I bought my M6 not for the legendary lenses, but just for the sake of having a leica! 🙂

Having said that, you've obviously displayed the true reason behind your Leica preference. Your sentiment above shows that your bias of the Leica brand is purely emotional. This fact alone would nullify all technical arguments you've made thus far on the DMR subject. I'll be happy to continue the discussion if you want to focus on the benefits of Leica hardware for one's soul and status... but consider the matter closed with me if you want to continue to argue on the technical brilliance of the DMR and deficiencies of the lowly 5D

"If you die rich, you've lived a poor life." ? 🙄
 
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ywenz said:
There is nothing wrong with giving preference to an item for reasons other than praticality. Heck I bought my M6 not for the legendary lenses, but just for the sake of having a leica! 🙂

Having said that, you've obviously displayed the true reason behind your Leica preference. Your sentiment above shows that your bias of the Leica brand is purely emotional. This fact alone would nullify all technical arguments you've made thus far on the DMR subject. I'll be happy to continue the discussion if you want to focus on the benefits of Leica hardware for one's soul and status... but consider the matter closed with me if you want to continue to argue on the technical brilliance of the DMR and deficiencies of the lowly 5D

"If you die rich, you've lived a poor life." ? 🙄

You may want to look at the following discussion in the forum below of the Leica DMR compared to the Canon 1DSMKII (you may have to register to read it, you do not have to pay unless you post images). I am through about 18 pages of discussion and photos but there are about 282 pages in the thread:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/267995/0
 
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Thank you Rich, I have pointed this discussion to that thread several times, apparently without succes.... If somebody thinks that technical excellence and pleasure of using tools are mutually exclusive, and fails to recognise a slightly ironic post, well.... BTW I drove a Morgan 4/4 from 1979 till 1993 as my main car, doing about 30.000 km a year in it, and loved it.Bought it new and sold it at 350.000 km to buy my current TR4, which, I must admit, has been relegated to the role of summer-fun car.
Anyway, it is useless to deny that any purchase of an item, except , maybe, but I doubt even that, purely business purchases, has a strong emotional content. Any form of design or marketing would be useless without that emotional content. On the other hand, if marketing and design is not backed up by technical properties, the success of any product will be extremely short-lived.

ywenz: what deficiencies of the 5D have I pointed out? Twisting my words again with a vegeance! Ifd you are so hung up on the word "lowly" I am perfectly willing to replace it with the word "middling" as the Canon DSLR pecking order is : 1DsII-1DIIN-5D-20D-350D !
 
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Is it not true to say that when you buy a product, you buy a little bit of the company as well....?

Many people prefer to buy a bit of Leica, rather than Canon or Nikon..........
 
Probably what happens is that a lot of people here see the RF camera as a Pleasure tool, and the SLR as a Pro tool.
So some of us choose the RF that gives more pleasure owning it, using it, and of course gives fine pictures.
When it comes to SLR on the other hand we tend to go in "Best Bang for the Bucks" mode.
However it looks that some other people here choose an SLR the same way as they choose a RF camera.
If however I had to choose an SLR as a pleasure tool it would be an Alpa, not a Leica, and about DSLR sorry I really can't bring myself to consider any of them an object that gives plesure in ownership, but other people may of course differ.
 
I have a Leica reflex system, and a Canon reflex system based around an EOS-1v. But I don't think I've used either of them for about 4 or 5 years.

I bought a Canon 300d, tried it, - it was fine, but I sold it a few weeks later, because I didn't think I would use it enough to justify it's rate of depreciation.

Somehow, if photography is to be done, I automatically prefer a leica rangefinder, because I'm so familiar with mine I can concentrate on the pic rather that the kit.

There would have to be a compelling technical reason to do anything different.

Thats why I'm pretty certain I'll eventually get a digital M.......It'll be the closest thing to what I am most comfortable using.

No doubt there are some people who feel that way about Leica manual focus reflex cameras.
 
I have had the DMR for a few weeks now and shot about 900 images. Of these, not a single one has exhibited a problem with red hotspots. And I don't know what the deal is with saying it is unable to reproduce reds. I have shot a bunch of shots of the fall leaves here and it seems to do very very well with reds. Particularly if you convert the raw files using flexcolor. I have found that ACR does not give results that are as good. It is most certainly a professional level tool, and anyone who disagrees has not spent time using it. It is NOT a photo journalist's DSLR though, so it does not need full weather sealing, 8 frames per second, AF or extremely high ISO performance. The DMR (and the R9 system as a whole) is designed for more contemplative shooting. It is much more of a studio camera or a tripod camera than a hold the camera in the air 3 feet above your head and try to snap photos of a celebrity camera. I am not criticizing the Canon cameras or saying they are better or worse than the DMR -- I have not used them enough to make a direct comparison. What I can tell you is that the DMR produces spectacular photographs, is extremely pleasant to use, and is a wonderfully engineered bit of tech.

I bought it because I had a bunch of R lenses and an R9 and I don't need or want autofocus. If I really really need a full frame 19mm shot, I can take the back off and shoot it on film, but the 19mm on the DMR works out to be about a 24mm lens, which is wide enough for me and the things I use the DMR for. If I really needed even wider than that, I could buy the 15mm.

Francesco -- I think you also stated "the r lenses are not the same caliber as the M lenses". I am paraphrasing, but if this is your opinion, then you are wrong. The lens lines each have their strengths. The 50mm and 35mm summilux ASPH lenses are better than their R counterparts, but not by much. The 19mm and 15mm R lenses are as good or better than the M superwides. The area that the R system really shines though, is in the telephoto range. The 100mm APO Macro elmarit R and the 180mm APO elmarit R are probably the two best lenses I have ever used. They excel in every area -- they are sharper than any other lenses for 35mm, and they have incredible color saturation, great flare resistance, apochromatic correction into the infrared range, great bokeh, extremely high build quality and excellent ergonomics. There is quite literally nothing to criticize on these lenses. I have not used any longer lenses, but if you talk to nature photographers like Douglas Herr, you will hear them rave about the 280mm lens and the APO telyt system. The telephoto zooms are also supposed to be astonishingly capable (cf Erwin Puts). I have not used them, so I cannot report personally.

In any case, this has been extremely long, but I wanted to really hammer the point home that to criticize these things without using them is an unwise course of action. If you have extensively used both then fine, criticize away, but until you have it does not reflect well on you.

As for the whole Leica bandwagon thing, I use and enjoy many cameras and lenses in both the M and R system, and I wish the best for Leica. I like them as a company. This does not mean that I will only use Leica or will choose their products whether they are good or not. I also use Voigtlander, Canon, Mamiya, Hasselblad, Horseman, Zeiss, Konica and Russian cameras or lenses, so I am not dyed in the wool Leica loyalist. I use what works and what I enjoy, and the DMR definitely fits on both counts.
 
Stuart, this kind of post gives me a sad feeling- I sold my Leica R outfit, which I used for wildlife photography- a few years back when it seemed Leica was never going to make it with the DMR in favor of a Canon digital system. 🙁 I can vouch for the 280 Apo 4.0 It is indeed an amazing lens and I have used it for thousands of photo's. Even stacked extenders 2x and 1.4 times to make it an 800 ( I didn't do that too often) resulted in very good prints. However, having used Canon's 300/4.0 IS extensively for the last few years I can only say that it comes very,very close in terms of quality, and the added feature of I(nternal)
S(tabiliser) enables me to get shots with a spotlight at 1/30th that would only be possible -and unsatisfactory-with flash on the Leica. And the price is only about one fifth. Having said that I still wish I had waited for Leica to make their move, as there are a number of other lenses that I sorely miss.....
 
Thank you Stuart and Jaap for your experience, insight and comments. I hope the "bashers" of the DMR and the entire Leica R series system will continue to read and monitor this discussion and to look at the additional references to forums and discussions outside of Rangefinder Forum that have been provided.

There is no question in my mind at this point that the DMR system certainly should have the capabilities to perform exceedingly well working around the Leica R8 and R9 cameras and the superb battery of current and older Leica lenses. For myself, I will undoubtedly have my R8 checked (was updated within the last year and a half) for working with the DMR and save my pennies for a DMR. Unfortunately I will also have to save many pennies to repair my Leica f 2.8 280mm Apo lens to replace 3 elements damaged by Fungus.

But if the DMR is as good as many are indicating, I hope that it proves as functional and provides as good results for the M Series shooter.
 
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Unfortunately when checked about a year to a year and a half ago my f2.8 280 mm Apo Telyt was going to require a replacement of 3 elements at a cost of $2800. So assuming no more damage, and the price of repair unchanged, I would guess that the lens is about worthless for trade. As to the f4 280 Apo, as I recall it has 2 ULD elements as opposed to the 1 in the 2.8. Yes it may be a little sharper, but it is 1 stop slower. Additionally, I do not recall if the f4 280 accepts the forward section of the elements in the 1.4X Apo extender originally designed for the f 2.8 280 Apo.

Additonally, as I had discussed with the tech staff at Leica USA (some of my friends have now retired and I see periodically at the Leica Booth at Photo Plus in NYC) indicated that this lens was the base of the new Apo Telyt system for the f2.8 280/f4 400/f5.6 560mm Apo Telyt System. When we discussed what to do regarding the modular system, they suggested keeping the 2.8 280 and getting the parts for the f 2.8 400/f5.6 800mm Apo Telyt modular system that Leica had loaned me for a month in 1998. The tech staff felt that this would be the most cost effective system providing superb performance and with the combination of parts that would also accept the 1.4X and the 2X Apo extenders.
 
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StuartR said:
And I don't know what the deal is with saying it is unable to reproduce reds.

For what I gathered in the article it looks that reds are easily saturated, but you'll be probably better off reading it yourself.
Most of the guys at AP really love their Leicas and would like nothing more than to give a Leica product a score higher than any Canon equivalent, so the fact that the DMR came out with such a modest score compared to the 5D and 1dsII cannot simply put down to "Leica bashing".

StuartR said:
I wanted to really hammer the point home that to criticize these things without using them is an unwise course of action. If you have extensively used both then fine, criticize away, but until you have it does not reflect well on you.
I am not sure I agree 100%, I tend to give more weight to a comprehensive review performed by a reputable professional than to personal experience mainly because the reviewer for a magazine like AP have usall yseen and handled more equipment that what most of us will be able to do in our lifetime.
And, providing that I cite my sources correctly and don't try to imply I handled equipment I didn't, I don't think it is going to reflect badly on me.

I can't afford to buy all sort of top range equipment to try it out and decide what I am going to keep, and I think many of us can't either, so reviews are our best bet when it comes to choose how to spend our hard earned cash.

If you have been lucky enough to handle the DMR module in all sort of difficult lighting conditions, and your findings contrast whith AP ones, what you should really do is read the article and point out what exactly they did wrong, that would be really helpful.
 
SutartR: So on the flip side, because you've used the DMR, we should then take your words in this forum as the truth? Doesn't our reference to other reviews hold as much weight as your words here?

If it looks like a duck, I call it out as a duck. I don't need to walk up and give it a full cavity search to cofirm it.. 😉
 
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Again Francesco,

You may wish to look at the forum discussion below. I still have a tremendous amount of reading in the forum (thread is 282 pages as of yesterday). Pros and others have been running the DMR through lots of tests and conditions and trying to fine tune the software to utilize the scans. They do compare the results of the DMR to the Canon top of the line 1DSMKII . As long as people do not need the speed of the camera and autofocus several have "dumped" their Canon system for the DMR. Guy Mancuso (who is a pro with 30 years experience) who started the thread below, is/will be purchasing a second DMR.

Check this very detailed and lengthy thread:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/267995/0
 
ywenz said:
SutartR: So on the flip side, because you've used the DMR, we should then take your words in this forum as the truth? Doesn't our reference to other reviews hold as much weight as your words here?

If it looks like a duck, I call it out as a duck. I don't need to walk up and give it a full cavity search to cofirm it.. 😉

In so many of your posts (not only in this thread, but others) you have been taking a very negative postion on many subjects. In addition, you seem to be pointing fingers at other equipments shortcomings and the individual. Maybe you should look at yourself. I suspect that this may come from lack of experience or age. Try to be more objective.
 
naturephoto1 said:
As long as people do not need the speed of the camera and autofocus several have "dumped" their Canon system for the DMR. Guy Mancuso (who is a pro with 30 years experience) who started the thread below, is/will be purchasing a second DMR.[/url]

I have a bit of a problem in finding the time to read such a long thread, you say that several people have dumped their Canon for the DMR, are they more than the people that decided to stick with Canon? 😉

I mean when you go someplace where you can expect to find pro photographers, have you counted the Canon and Nikon SLRs, and have you counted the Leicas?
This should tell you something...

I take pictures with my M4-P and my RD-1 because I am an amateur, should I have to earn my living with photography the money from the Leica and the Epson would probably have gone in a Canon DSLR pro body, and the money from my RF-lenses in some Canon L glass.
 
jaapv said:
???? Maybe AP had a bum camera or wrote what they thought their readers wanted to hear

You need to read the review. The reviewer liked the DMR a lot. He likes the R9, he liked the DMR, he just noticde that it does have internal reflection problems and printed the photos were i had occurred. Mind you, they were the sort of pictures where you are pushing the lens a bit, but you might have hoped a Leica would have coped. He also pointed out some issues with the moire filter.

The review IMHO was very fair.
 
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