chris00nj
Young Luddite
I was wondering about the potential market for a budget digital rangefinder.
Imagine a Leica M9 without any LCD screen, menu controls, or on-camera photo processing? All you get is USB port and a RAW output. You would take care of any post-processing on your computer.
Would this have a market? Sure you don't get to see your pictures right away, but is that really necessary, especially if it comes at a high cost?
What percentage of total cost is the LCD screen, controls, license for post processing software, plus larger battery and other items required to support that?
If Leica can sell its O series, with lens, for $1000, I can't imagine the body and shutter being that expensive. The only other major cost would be for the full frame digital sensor.
Would demand suffer tremedously without the LCD screen regardless of price? If say Leica could sell the FF budget DRF for $2500, wouldn't there be a market?
Leica had it's IIf for a budget camera instead of the IIIf. Why not this?
Any thoughts? (I tried looking to see if its been discussed before but couldn't find anything)
Imagine a Leica M9 without any LCD screen, menu controls, or on-camera photo processing? All you get is USB port and a RAW output. You would take care of any post-processing on your computer.
Would this have a market? Sure you don't get to see your pictures right away, but is that really necessary, especially if it comes at a high cost?
What percentage of total cost is the LCD screen, controls, license for post processing software, plus larger battery and other items required to support that?
If Leica can sell its O series, with lens, for $1000, I can't imagine the body and shutter being that expensive. The only other major cost would be for the full frame digital sensor.
Would demand suffer tremedously without the LCD screen regardless of price? If say Leica could sell the FF budget DRF for $2500, wouldn't there be a market?
Leica had it's IIf for a budget camera instead of the IIIf. Why not this?
Any thoughts? (I tried looking to see if its been discussed before but couldn't find anything)
kbg32
neo-romanticist
I don't think there would be a market. There are plenty of digital p & s that offer RAW, a high quality LCD, built in flash, and a zoom lens for a lot less then $500.
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kbg32
neo-romanticist
Panasonic Lumix LX3.
kbg32
neo-romanticist
Same as the LX3. The Panasonic can be had for well under $500 and image quality is amazing. The Ricoh GRDll is replaced by the GRDlll. The later costs over $600.
chris00nj
Young Luddite
But what about an M-mount, full frame camera?
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
I don't think deleting a little programming and an LCD would significantly lower the price of a camera. I think only about 12 people pine after such a stripped camera. 
JoeV
Thin Air, Bright Sun
While we can hope that Leica's digital M series sell like, well, hotcakes, I think the reality is that they're specialist tools. Given that reality, and the small but dedicated base of film-based M users, I'd think such a product would have a good enough market to perhaps be viable.
But, it isn't going to make the M9 much cheaper. I'd guess that the chip in the M9 is pretty pricey from Kodak, given the low volumes of production.
What would make this idea more interesting is a B/W only sensor, around 12-15MP; at a full-frame size, each pixel would be about three times the surface area of the current sensor, giving it some dazzling low-light sensitivity. Combine that with the stripped-down aesthetics (like a digital MP), and they may have something. But the price has got to be reasonable.
~Joe
But, it isn't going to make the M9 much cheaper. I'd guess that the chip in the M9 is pretty pricey from Kodak, given the low volumes of production.
What would make this idea more interesting is a B/W only sensor, around 12-15MP; at a full-frame size, each pixel would be about three times the surface area of the current sensor, giving it some dazzling low-light sensitivity. Combine that with the stripped-down aesthetics (like a digital MP), and they may have something. But the price has got to be reasonable.
~Joe
swoop
Well-known
I think they're selling well enough. I ordered mine in November and am still waiting for it to come in.
gerikson
Established
The LCD and processing chips are commodity items. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if they're the cheapest parts of the camera.
Postprocessing software may be expensive to develop initially but the margin cost per camera is minimal. It may be that it comes as a package with the chip, or at least the API hooks are exposed.
The viewfinder and shutter are very expensive unless you make huge volumes, which Leica doesn't. Same for the chip.
Savings on batteries etc will be minimal at best. Processors keep getting faster and more energy efficient.
Leica is selling its cameras on 50% technical excellence and 50% brand and nostalgia. The rich people buying one for the brand (Eric Clapton and friends) don't have time to dick around with RAW processing, they want great pics out of camera and they want to be able to show them to their rich friends on a read LCD.
Postprocessing software may be expensive to develop initially but the margin cost per camera is minimal. It may be that it comes as a package with the chip, or at least the API hooks are exposed.
The viewfinder and shutter are very expensive unless you make huge volumes, which Leica doesn't. Same for the chip.
Savings on batteries etc will be minimal at best. Processors keep getting faster and more energy efficient.
Leica is selling its cameras on 50% technical excellence and 50% brand and nostalgia. The rich people buying one for the brand (Eric Clapton and friends) don't have time to dick around with RAW processing, they want great pics out of camera and they want to be able to show them to their rich friends on a read LCD.
Selling well enough or is Leica slow at manufactuering them?
ruby.monkey
Veteran
Indeed. Aren't the most expensive components in an M9 the rangefinder mechanism, the sensor, and the badge?I don't think deleting a little programming and an LCD would significantly lower the price of a camera. I think only about 12 people pine after such a stripped camera.
BillP
Rangefinder General
Deja vu...
And setup? and changes to ISO, white balance, etc, etc...?
Only amongst masochists and dreamers.
Please try harder in future.
This is one of the great daft ideas of our time, alongside digital backs for film Ms, autofocus for Ms, and creationism. it comes up from time to time. Wiser heads prevail. It goes away.
Regards,
Bill
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
There's a lot of people out there who will buy the M9 because it is extremely expensive and they know damned well that they are very unlikely to bump into anyone else with one hanging from their neck on a daily or weekly basis when out shooting.
This is the type of customer Leica is aiming at whether they admit it or not IMO ... so a cheaper stripped down version is not in their interest at all.
This is the type of customer Leica is aiming at whether they admit it or not IMO ... so a cheaper stripped down version is not in their interest at all.
downstairs
downstairs
Then add me to the daft list. I would buy a minimalist M9P any day (wouldn't you?). Leica has got to tighten up the M series, otherwise they'll lose the the pros and then the fat cats.
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I, for one, have come to rely on the LCD. I like that I know I got my shot each and every time.
ruby.monkey
Veteran
Aren't the pros the very guys who will rely constantly on the rear LCD? After all, they're the people whose livelihoods depend on bagging the shot.
nonot
Well-known
Just find someone on EBay with an M8 and a broken LCD for sale, should come in around $2500.
My Mint in Box, 3-month old M8, with less than 400 actuations was under 2500USD with Leica case, spare battery, SD card, AND the Little Red Button! Ever see the Daffy Duck Cartoon about "Don't ever press the RED Button".
The M8/M9 battery is tiny compared with others. The LCD and processor board is not expensive. Would save size and weight, but a new processor board and interface would have to be developed for things like setting the ISO, White Balance, formatting the card, etc. So you still need the push buttons and non-imaging LCD with readouts, like an AF-SLR.
The M8/M9 battery is tiny compared with others. The LCD and processor board is not expensive. Would save size and weight, but a new processor board and interface would have to be developed for things like setting the ISO, White Balance, formatting the card, etc. So you still need the push buttons and non-imaging LCD with readouts, like an AF-SLR.
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batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
I think Leica would have to be nuts to come out with this.
I'm hoping for a full-frame sensor, RAW storage, and USB readout in a film cartridge form factor. Pop it into any 35mm film camera -- maybe after a pressure-plate-ectomy -- shoot away, return home and download the shots into the PC. Now that's a product I would buy in a heartbeat, as long as it looks reliable enough for years of use.
If full-frame is the sticking point, somebody please develop this for 110. I should buy a Pentax 110 outfit right now, come to think of it, while they're dirt cheap.
I'm hoping for a full-frame sensor, RAW storage, and USB readout in a film cartridge form factor. Pop it into any 35mm film camera -- maybe after a pressure-plate-ectomy -- shoot away, return home and download the shots into the PC. Now that's a product I would buy in a heartbeat, as long as it looks reliable enough for years of use.
If full-frame is the sticking point, somebody please develop this for 110. I should buy a Pentax 110 outfit right now, come to think of it, while they're dirt cheap.
Austerby
Well-known
Perhaps Cosina will beat Leica to it with a R2D too?